The case against Christian public holidays!

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  • Citizen X
    Diamond Member

    • Sep 2011
    • 3411

    #46
    The problem statement is very simple, “What must I do with this Jesus?” Pilate defined the problem statement for us! Matthew 27:22.
    The Jesus thing: For me, it’s been a situation along the following lines, despite the vile, grotesque and downright sinful things I’ve done, a stranger came to me, not me to him, and he said, ‘I’ve got a present for you! Here’s a bag with 1 million rands, it’s yours, I don’t want anything in return and goodbye, enjoy your money!
    Similarly, what Jesus has done for me in my life is beyond expression in words! As at today’s date by virtue of the vile, grotesque and sinful conduct I’ve engaged in(the definition of sin being wide, ‘I got caught making love to another man’s wife!”), I should not even be acceptable in His sight, but I am!
    It’s really about personal preference. That is, whether you prefer the back yard mechanic or the reputable car dealer. I personally prefer the backyard mechanic. To date, I prefer the services of my Black brother and sisters in the informal settlement in Lenasia i.e. plumber, tiler, mechanic, builder, electrician etc..
    Take the ship building industry for instance. The Titanic and its ill fated voyage! It was initially meant to be name ‘the titan,’ we know that a Titan is a formidable Greek God. They said it would never sink and not even God could sink it, but it sinked! It was built by Alexander Carlisle at today’s price of 500 million US dollars! It required 15 000 workers. The length of its maiden voyage was some 5 days! Now, as it were, there was this other back yard ship builder called Noah. The architect of his ship was God himself. Noah and some 3 other helpers built this ship according to clear specifications given to them. The maiden voyage was some 370 days and there were no casualties, everyone on that ship survived. Naval experience will only get you so far, The captain of the Titanic boasted some 43 years of naval experience, Noah has 0!
    This may apply to very few out there in cyber space, but if you are where I think you are, then you are exactly where the enemy who we call the devil wants you to be. It’s actually his job to condemn you in your mind, to make you feel guilty to make you feel unworthy of God. You must appreciate that if he can get you to do this, then,he doesn’t have to focus on you.
    “Satan is a Hebrew noun meaning “adversary”—the enemy, opponent, antagonist, foe. The verb forms of the noun mean to “accuse,” “slander” and “be an adversary” (Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 5, 1992, “Satan,” p. 985). The other term the Bible most often uses to describe this being, devil, is similarly revealing. Devil is translated from the Greek word diabolos, the root from which we get the
    word diabolical, used to describe something wicked or sinister. Diabolos means “an accuser, a slanderer”
    I don’t need or even want any donation, tin food or blankets from you! I encourage you to give such items to those in need. You see ‘servant,’ means you do physical work. You physically take the time and effort to hand such items out to those in need, you physically go and visit prisoners, not because I say so, but because Jesus specifically instructed you to do so!



    “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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    • Dave A
      Site Caretaker

      • May 2006
      • 22807

      #47
      Originally posted by Vanash Naick
      It’s really about personal preference.
      I prefer the simple case against Christian public holidays (only) - it discriminates against other religions. Either they all get a look-in (which I'd argue is untenable) or none do.

      Participation is voluntary.

      Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

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      • Citizen X
        Diamond Member

        • Sep 2011
        • 3411

        #48
        Originally posted by Dave A
        I prefer the simple case against Christian public holidays (only) - it discriminates against other religions. Either they all get a look-in (which I'd argue is untenable) or none do.

        A very good afternoon to you Dave! The simple case is realy just that, way to simple! This matter actually defies a short answer. I haven't even started with Easter as yet! The Easter debacle includes tons of valid arguments, don't know that I will have the energy to address Easter! Yes, in principle and in fairness, all human beings have a right to observe their religious holidays and even the right to create a new religion with new holy days and/or holidays. You surmise rather quite well when you say that all religions should ideally get their holy day/festival acknowledged as a public holiday and you go on further to conclude that this would be untenable. It will, according to my count, if we do include all religious days and even perceived religious days we looking at some 40 public holidays! The key party here is the major retailer and not actually the christian. The major retailer stands to loose big time if easter and christmas is scrapped....
        “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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        "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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        • Dave A
          Site Caretaker

          • May 2006
          • 22807

          #49
          Originally posted by Vanash Naick
          The simple case is realy just that, way to simple!
          Too simple, or is the short answer in truth too inconvenient?

          Originally posted by Vanash Naick
          This matter actually defies a short answer.
          It certainly does if you don't like the short answer

          I suspect much of the social complexity of this world stems from something similar. But then, it also keeps the world interesting
          Participation is voluntary.

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          • Citizen X
            Diamond Member

            • Sep 2011
            • 3411

            #50
            Originally posted by Dave A
            Too simple, or is the short answer in truth too inconvenient?
            I suspect much of the social complexity of this world stems from something similar. But then, it also keeps the world interesting
            A very good morning to you Dave! Constructive rhetoric and dialogue sure does keep this sometimes crazy world of our interesting! It pains me, that had I made these remarks a couple of centuries ago, the church would have declared me a heretic and executed me!!!!


            Brother VN, you don’t seem to have brotherly Christian love in you brother VN. Oh really, why?? You just get to belong to the very prestigious club of ‘lowly and despised,’ the heathen. You belong to this club by virtue of how you’ve conducted your life. So I qualify without any reservation, such reservation exists only in the minds of my detractors! You see you just happen upon this club of the weak, foolish and lowly and despised creature of this world. You really need to be low in status, in position and in income! I’ve earned this status! BUT, brother VN, you judging, criticizing and condemning, surely that’s not Biblical! Well, if you at the bottom of the pecking order and you not even on the Christian list let alone ‘the most important Christian list, then you get this privilege by default!!!

            You know I as VN am nothing by the standards of this world, a mere nobody. I’m pleased with my ‘nobody status,’ tell them ‘nobody,’ shared the aforementioned with you……I’m not of noble birth, I’m not influential and I was not even wise by human standards when I was called to service of His Majesty!
            “I'm like a head trip to listen to, cause I'm only givin you things you joke about with your friends inside your living room, The only difference is I got the balls to say it in front of y'all and I don't gotta be false or sugarcoated at all ,I just get on the mic and spit it.”
            “The jail bars could not hold me, force could not control me now, they tried to keep me down, but God took I around, YES, I’ve been accused and wrongly abused now, but through the powers of The Most High, they got to turn me loose!”

            1. We usually have a situation where a member of an organisation brings that organisation in disrepute. My situation is wholly different; the church in general has brought me into disrepute!!! The list is exhaustive, but inter alia, by displaying ignorance regarding Christmas and Easter, Ignorance for many centuries about the fact that the earth is not the centre of the universe, and the sun and other planets most certainly don’t revolve around the earth! More clod and clinical though is the fact that many so called pastors are peddling the ‘Word for profit,’ the fact that the church is meant to be a sanctuary but history tells us that educated Christian priests raped thousands of men and boys who came to the church for refuge! There is this certain other religion, that I won’t mention, where it’s members not priests, it’s members undertake to feed people quality food 2 times are here. I went to observe. They prepare 20- big pots of quality mutton biryani. This includes some 8 sheep, lots of rice and potatoes to name a few. The invitation is an open 1, anyone can attend and you don’t even have to stay for the prayers that follow. Not only do you get a quality meal but you also encouraged to bring an empty container to take some food home. The poor live on this for about 5 days! In stark contrast, I’ve attended certain ‘reputable,’ churches where food was available, BUT, NOT FOR FREE! You had to pay, it was expensive and they even made a profit!(another merc coming your way pastor???);
            “Lord, it’s not easy! Think it through, he who hide the wrong he did, surely did the wrong still! This world is da mix up, the mix up, mix up! There’s so much stumbling blocks in my way Lord, in this mix up, mix up, mix up! AND you’ve been talking your mouth full of lies! AND, LORD, they criticize!”


            2. I once encountered this ‘christian lady,’ at an unnamed gym, she remarked to me that I don’t look ‘Christian,’ oh really, how does a Christian look??? Naturally, I felt like vomiting on her, in much the same way as I’ve vomited on some chick in some club in the 80’s in a drunken stupor; It dawned on me though that If I had vomited on her, it would have been the vomit of a sober man and not the much necessary quality vomit that only a very drunk man could create. Therein lied my problem, she required quality vomit and I would have been unable to generate that much deserved quality vomit that she in particular really needed very, very much. I apologise for not having been able to grant a good quality vomit on you episode. With the benefit of retrospect, I’m deeply regretful! You really deserved some good old fashioned alcohol drenched vomit!!!!

            3. ‘The God particle,’ I don’t know about the ‘God Particle,’ but I am privy to the activities of the enemy who among other things just like your typical criminal can and has and will continue to manipulate evidence at the crime scene as it were. I don’t know that an ape can become a man but I do question why this practice has suddenly stopped?
            4. So no not God particle BUT God Effect, YES indeed!, You see there was this character in the middle of nowhere and God appeared to him(and no, there was no church choir, no church musical special effects to make the encounter more spiritual and holy as it were, by the way, you don’t need no church music special effects and/or piano or choir to have a legitimate spiritual experience with God!). God instructed him to go and free his people from bondage in Egypt. Now, he put his reasonable concerns to God, it went something like this(my paraphrase), ‘BUT, God, I don’t have confidence, I don’t know how to speak, in short, I’m a mess, I messed up big time in my life, I even murdered someone and perhaps more importantly I can’t really speak well.” The response, something along these lines, “ I have created the mouth and all aspects related to human speech and language including the very mechanisms in a man that emit sound, I will teach you what to say! It gets worse, Moses simply asks, basically if this stubborn ungrateful people whom you want me to lead out of slavery, who must I say sent me, who are you??? “ Tell THEM, I AM has sent you!” Moses probably said to himself, “Oh great, It was bad enough been in this bloody desert for 40 years and now I must go and tell my people “I Am,’ has sent me! What???
            5. To put things in even clearly context, you see, even as early as 3000 BC, all Jewish people, knew, that you don’t go and use the words ‘I Am,’ loosely simply because of that vital Moses/God interaction….I’ve got some news for you! Jesus, did just that, what no one was supposed to do..Jesus said,


            I am the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25, NIV)

            I am the light of the world. (John 8:12, NIV)
            I and my Father are one. (John 10:30, NIV)
            I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Revelation 22:13, NIV) I am the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, NIV)
            I am the only way to the Father [God]. (John 14:6)
            “My road is long But yes I know! I’ve got to reach the end, I’m weary and tired, but I can’t stop to rest!”
            6. “Yeah, I probably got a couple of screws up in my head loose..” I’m cool with this, truth is, I don’t really give a damn about what most pastors have to say, I’m just trusting in the Lord, just trusting in the Lord. I just turn to my Bible and good old fashioned faith. I just appeal directly to God and don’t go to another man to intervene on behalf of me, I don’t need or want a middle man. I just let the Holy Spirit guide me into all truth and not rely on some pastor for some of the truth. “The just shall live by faith,”
            7. “I'm sick of him….Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"
            8. You see thers’s either a God or there’s no God, and if there is a God, and He just happens to be the God of my understanding then the Bible is clear, “ If God be for you who can be against you,” and further that He wants us to worship in spirit and truth,’ emphasize on TRUTH here! My point, if you just so happen to be a professor in theology or a bible school student or a bible school graduate or a pastor then I’ll challenge you to live debate on public radio about Christmas and easter not been biblical at all and you know what, God will be for me and against you because I’m speaking the truth and you speaking a big LIE!!!! You see I know I’m not ‘Cleva,’ I admit I’m part of the “foolish things of this world!”
            "Ah, wait, no way, you're kidding, he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?"
            Yeah I did!!!!!


            “Some will hate you, pretend they love you now, then behind they try to eliminate you! BUT, who God bless, no one can curse, then God will pass the worse!”



            “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
            Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
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            "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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            • adrianh
              Diamond Member

              • Mar 2010
              • 6328

              #51
              So Vanash, tell me more about your understanding of what the God Particle is that people are talking about? I'm very keen to hear your views on it?
              I'm also keen to hear about these enemies that you are privy to - tell me more?

              You should watch some (no...all) of Pat Condell's talks on Youtube - now he is a visionary. His latest talk is especially good.

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              • Citizen X
                Diamond Member

                • Sep 2011
                • 3411

                #52
                There is a largely imaginative speculation with regards to the observance of Easter, alternatively it’s validity as a bona fide Biblical based holy day and/or holiday alternatively it’s actual origin. The early Church, for the first 300 years of its inception did not observe or commemorate Easter as we know it today whatsoever!!!
                If it was so important and necessary then surely the Apostle Paul would have addressed its significance in at least one of his letters to the early church. The Apostle Peter having seen a resurrected Christ, to such a point where just a few days before he sees a resurrected Christ he vehemently denied his association with the Christ, and then thereafter doesn’t care if he lives or dies, he preaches the gospel with conviction. Now, surely, since the resurrection did indeed take place and the crucifixion transpired without any doubt in my mind and according to my belief, then why didn’t the Apostle Peter address this issue on the day of Pentecost? He could have simply added to what he already testified to i.e. The Christ was crucified and the Christ was resurrected so from this day forth you now observe Easter!!!


                1. “ Preacher man, don't tell me, Heaven is under the earth.
                I know you don't know what life is really worth.It's not all that glitters is gold;
                'Alf the story has never been told: So now you see the light, eh!
                Stand up for your rights. Come on!
                Most people think, Great God will come from the skies,
                Take away everything, And make everybody feel high.
                But if you know what life is worth..you’ll stand up for your rights.”


                2. “A tisk-it a task-it, I'll go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this shit, that shit..” Oh brother VN, we now convinced that there’s no Christian love in you! Oh really, what exactly is Christian love, educated priests with degrees in theology and in certain cases even doctorates raping men and boys who turn to the church for refuge and for sanctuary! No, this type of Christian love, of which there are thousands of reported cases worldwide is not the type of Christian love I’ll demonstrate to someone who approaches me in emotional, financial and physical dire straits!
                3. Easter eggs have nothing to do with the record of the Christ
                4. The observance or celebration of Easter predate the Christ’s birth. This period of Easter was dedicated to ancient day spring celebrations paying homage to the goddess of spring and fertility. Now, in 2 Kings 23: 13, you may be surprised to find that the Bible actually refers to this Goddess as “Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians”
                “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
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                "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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                • adrianh
                  Diamond Member

                  • Mar 2010
                  • 6328

                  #53
                  So Vanash, I take it that Alice really went down the rabbit hole?

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                  • vieome
                    Email problem

                    • Apr 2012
                    • 540

                    #54
                    I heard about the GOD particle but I am sure nothing will come of it, just going to be something that people are going to have to believe exists but never get to see it. On the question of religious holidays I agree christian holidays should not be forced on anyone, but I think all religious holidays should be forced apon the work force, give me all the Jewish Holidays allow me to observe and have the day off for Eid and all the rest.


                    <Rant/> Not to be taken seriously!
                    Why is it so that most of the world have the Christmas holiday? I think it more to do with the holy grail effect. I believe there in a Jesus, but I believe too that there was no miracle in feeding the five thousand, it was simple the creation of the Holy grail that fed the many. Jesus simple seen that with 5000 congregants if they put together what money they had on them that money will be enough to buy food for all, even those who attended and had no money on them(socialism). All the donations was collected in a basket(the holy grail). They still have the holy grail in all churchs, the tool used for collecting donations, which remain tax free and no accounting for, not to the goverment not to church goers. Why the catholics built a whole city from the proceeds of their holy grail(basket for collecting cash in church). Adams smiths classic invisable hand, take cash from the masses, give them Karl Marx religion opium for the masses, and we goverment will excercise keynes control.

                    But yes please give us any holiday from working the jobs we hate to buy things we dont need.
                    </Rant>

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                    • Citizen X
                      Diamond Member

                      • Sep 2011
                      • 3411

                      #55
                      Vieome, I can tell that you are a learned individual. Adam Smith is the prophet if you will of capitalism. His 'wealth of nations,' is very light reading material compared to Marx's doctoral thesis and Das capital. Jesus was practical, here's the scenario, a poor man on his way home to the informal settlement passes by my home. I simply can hand him a tract or preach the gospel to him, but that is not going to solve his immediate problem, he's hungry! So where I can I'll offer such a person something to eat. I collect these empty butter containers for that very purpose and then I preach the gospel. You see, Jesus realised that those 5000 needed something practical before their spiritual needs could be met! I know of certain churches that will charge you for a plate of food! Not at cost price, but there's actually a profit motive involved. Since by my own admission I'm a 'lowly and despised thing of this world,' I get to take on these pastors!
                      “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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                      "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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                      • Citizen X
                        Diamond Member

                        • Sep 2011
                        • 3411

                        #56
                        Originally posted by adrianh
                        So Vanash, I take it that Alice really went down the rabbit hole?
                        A very good afternoon to you Adrian!
                        I must admit, I enjoy our interaction, it makes for interesting insight in difference of opinion or simply where one is coming from really!
                        You raise a very good question! I don’t have an intelligent answer! Notwithstanding this, I take the ‘beat around the bush’ approach. My first tertiary education encounter was in 1992. It was here that much of the techniques, tools and method really of inference and drawing conclusions were first anchored in me. Back then it was a very rudimentary approach to logic. A prof, had impressed upon me, in his thesis the following: “Alice asked the cat, which direction should I take? The cat replied, That would depend on where you want to go!”
                        Where do we eventually want to go? Does it matter? Do we care? Will it really make a difference?
                        I reckon we all free agents, we all have freedom of choice, you can actually decide that you want to specifically go to hell but I sincerely don’t advise that, you won’t like it there!
                        You see I already have a ’commander in chief,’ the God of my understanding who is Jesus Christ! People are believing in mother earth when they should be believing in father God! I’ve learnt the following the very hard way: ‘ God can correct a little bad theology but not a bad heart.’ I had a rotten, little selfish, greedy, self seeking heart at one stage. But Jesus demonstrated that He can embark on a lifelong correction journey with you if only you let him, it’s no wonder that King David said, ‘Lord create in me a clean heart, Lord let your holy spirit live in me, cast me not away from your presence and I will be as white as snow.”




                        “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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                        "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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                        • adrianh
                          Diamond Member

                          • Mar 2010
                          • 6328

                          #57
                          I'll tell you this much, if I get to choose between spending eternity with a bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits in heaven, or interesting open-minded people in hell then I'll be packing my braai tongs....

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                          • Citizen X
                            Diamond Member

                            • Sep 2011
                            • 3411

                            #58
                            Originally posted by adrianh
                            I'll tell you this much, if I get to choose between spending eternity with a bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits in heaven, or interesting open-minded people in hell then I'll be packing my braai tongs....
                            Adrian, Biblically good people don't go to heaven, believers do!!!! The Bible says, 'God resist the proud, not the sinner,' in the book of Mathhew, Jesus is the 'friend of the sinner,' in fact it was those very "bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits" 'The chief priests and the elders,' who accused and persecuted Jesus. It was not the lowly despised, weak and foolish things of this world that acused him and persecuted him, in fact, they were His target audience, They listened to what He had to say and they included prostitutes, alcoholics and criminals to name a few. 'HE came for the 'lost, poor and broken hearted,'
                            “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                            Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
                            Click here
                            "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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                            • adrianh
                              Diamond Member

                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6328

                              #59
                              'HE came for the 'lost, poor and broken hearted,'
                              So what happened to the people that roamed around the earth before Jesus came along - did they go to hell, or what about the Chinese during the time Jesus roamed around, did they go to hell. So I take it 99% of the KoiSan are now KFC because they didn't understand a word of what Jan Van Riebeek had to say.

                              Ou broer, Christianity doesn't cut it, it leaves way too may simple questions unanswered. You can quote as much as you want, you will never convince me that Tibetans are going to hell because they don't believe a particular fairy tale. you'll never convince me that the KoiSan who roamed the earth going about their business not bothering anybody are going to hell because they never learned to read a particular translation of a particualr selection of story books. So I take it the entire Korean nation is going to fry and so are most of the indians, Pakistani's and don't forget about the Jews, they will fry with Hitler and his cronies because they got the wrong fairytale book. Then of course there are those Christians that ran around slaughtering Moslems and burning witches at the stake.

                              Come come, my 13 year old daughter is bright enough to figure out that the story book simply isn't good enough. She is bright enough to figure out that Buddhists aren't bad people because theydon't read your book or that Moslems are gong to burn too.

                              My view is simple, we all are part of the entire universe, good is part of bad as love is part of hate....it all is what it is and life doesn't balance itself. You do the best you can with the hand that you are dealt and the you're gone lie a bubble bursting in the sunlight. The air in the bubble still exists and the sun still exists but the bubble holding the air in limbo has dissipated....

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                              • Dave A
                                Site Caretaker

                                • May 2006
                                • 22807

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Vanash Naick
                                You raise a very good question! I don’t have an intelligent answer! Notwithstanding this, I take the ‘beat around the bush’ approach.


                                Great to see this debate being conducted in good spirit.
                                Participation is voluntary.

                                Alcocks Electrical Services | Alcocks Pest Control & Entomological Services | Alcocks Hygiene Services

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