The case against Christian public holidays!

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  • Citizen X
    Diamond Member

    • Sep 2011
    • 3411

    #61
    Originally posted by Dave A


    Great to see this debate being conducted in good spirit.
    As it should always be conducted Dave, good spirit, peaceful rhetoric and dialogue and a profound respect for each other regardless of our religious diversity...I think the sentiment, is 'agree to disagree,'
    A very good morning to you Adrian!
    Your opinion is perfectly acceptable as is any other opinion! “Every man has a right to decide his own destiny!”
    I have a genuine profound respect for my Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters and we share certain fundamental doctrine. Yes, we do differ on other fundamental matters but that is where freedom of choice arises! So, yes, indeed, I respect and accept all people unconditionally regardless of any arbitrary or frivolous criteria! I do however assert my own Christian belief and would anyone of any other religion. The main problem and challenge today is that we have public relations statements meant to foster good relations where those public relations statements are not really true i.e. “all religions teach the same things,’ simply not true, ‘there is only one God,’ also simply not true, in certain religions there are more than one deity!
    Now, here’s where it gets really compelling we can’t all be right! It’s either Zeus, the Greek God, is God or he isn’t!
    My gripe is with the church in general, as it is largely because of the church in general that we have this public relations nightmare! Many unbelievers are at a point in their lives where they truly searching for answers and a religion to follow, they will accordingly approach people from all religions for answers. As an evangelist I’m at an immediate disadvantage because of what the church has done in the past i.e. Christian love, as it were, during one of the crusades, the knights marched into Jerusalem, locked many Jewish men, women and children in a synagogue and burnt that building down, as these people screamed in pain, they sang, ‘Christ we adore you,’ Biblically before Christ, the penance if you will for sin was a sacrificial lamb that was unblemished. Now if you were the cheap, scaly character that I am, as I would have chosen the cheapest lamb with foot and mouth disease just to save some bucs, my problem would arise when I presented such lamb to the priest for inspection before sacrifice, that animal had to be blemish free. My animal would not have been accepted! Now, as it were during the very passover when lambs were been selected for this very purpose, the Christ was inspected by pontious pilate and was found by pilate to be blemish free, this is the reason why we believe that the Christ was the ultimate sacrificial lamb!


    “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
    Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
    Click here
    "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

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    • adrianh
      Diamond Member

      • Mar 2010
      • 6328

      #62
      My bottom line opinion is this: any religion that considers itself to be the only true religion is inherintly flawed.

      Comment

      • Blurock
        Diamond Member

        • May 2010
        • 4203

        #63
        Originally posted by adrianh
        My bottom line opinion is this: any religion that considers itself to be the only true religion is inherintly flawed.
        The problem with religion is not God, it is man. Everyone wants to see God in his own image, whereas we should live in the image of God, as we were created.

        If religion does not suit us, we find a new religion or we make new rules to accommodate our own views. It is common knowledge and a known fact that the Jews, Christians and Muslims pray to the same God. Why then can we not live as Children of God, but in stead fight each other to defend our own selfish views.

        The Bible and the story of Christ is not a fairy tale. There is enough evidence and proof supported by archaeological finds and historical records. What we need to understand is that history is recorded by people who often have their own interpretation of events. By collecting all the evidence and then coming to a conclusion, one can not deny the Greatness of God, by who's grace we live on this earth.


        “I believe in the sun, even though it isn’t shining,
        I believe in love, even when I’m alone.
        I believe in God, even when He is silent.” Unknown

        "Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
        Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

        Comment

        • adrianh
          Diamond Member

          • Mar 2010
          • 6328

          #64
          Life is about being OK no matter what cards you are dealt....

          This has nothing to do with religion...It is a simple matter of not asking "WHY"

          Religion doesn't seem to have any other purpose that to make people feel ok about their insignificance in the greater scheme of things, to feel better about the terrbile things that they have already done and to justify the terrible things that thay are going to do.

          Comment

          • adrianh
            Diamond Member

            • Mar 2010
            • 6328

            #65
            @Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)

            Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then?

            What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?

            She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.

            Comment

            • Citizen X
              Diamond Member

              • Sep 2011
              • 3411

              #66
              Originally posted by adrianh
              @Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)

              Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then?

              What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?

              She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.
              A very good afternoon to you Adrian!
              Adrian, I most certainly don’t have all the answers here! I’m just acutely aware of the fact that I had a spiritual experience in my life, that Jesus did touch my heart as opposed to touching only my mind, that He did restore me body, mind and spirit and even gave me a financial blessing when I was in a precarious financial position! I know that I chose to believe in Him, that I believe that He has a plan, purpose and mission for me. When I was called to be a Christian I was not even ‘wise by human standards, I was ‘not of noble birth,’ my parents (now retired had normal real jobs), my grandparents from my father’s side were very poor; my grandfather was a waiter and my grandmother a house wife; from my mother’s side, my grandfather was a builder (when I say builder, I don’t mean architect or foreman I mean the labourer, the brick layer. My Grand mother was intent on becoming a missionary and resolved to go to Bible School. She had 8 children when due to gross negligence by student doctors at the St Johns eye hospital of the time, she became completely blind in both eyes. I never seen her sad, depressed or discouraged even on one day. In fact when I was in matric, I needed a quite place to study for my exams and went to stay with my grandparents. My grandmother being blind insisted on cooking and doing my washing and she wouldn’t have it any other way. At that time , I was not saved and I believed in nothing!!! One of my favourite songs at that time was ironically enough one that articulates very clearly what you said in these last few posts!


              “God is a concept by which we measure Our pain
              I'll say it again God is a concept by which we measure Our pain

              I don't believe in magic
              I don't believe in I-ching
              I don't believe in Bible
              I don't believe in tarot
              I don't believe in Hitler
              I don't believe in Jesus
              I don't believe in Kennedy
              I don't believe in Buddha
              I don't believe in Mantra
              I don't believe in Gita
              I don't believe in Yoga
              I don't believe in kings
              I don't believe in Elvis
              I don't believe in Zimmerman
              I don't believe in Beatles
              I just believe in me
              Yoko and me
              And that's reality

              The dream is over
              What can I say?
              The dream is over
              Yesterday
              I was the Dreamweaver
              But now I'm reborn
              I was the Walrus
              But now I'm John
              And so dear friends
              You'll just have to carry on
              The dream is over.”


              At this stage in my life, despite concerted efforts from both my grand parents who were evangelists for me to accept Christ and serve Him I actually refused!!! I turned to Jesus, my Jesus, when I had no one else in this world to turn to! My life had unravelled on a few occasions! I needed not just 1 but a few miracles. According to human logic and experience, their was no real way out of my predicament for me, but HE, Jesus, He took me, He accepted me, He looked after me, He provided for me, He made a way for me where there was no real way out!!!!
              Your daughter, raises a very compelling and valid question, one that really made me think about it myself. I’m a kingdom amateur, a nobody in this world, not even a footnote on the most important Christian list. I was not ‘influential,’ when I was called, I was a nobody then, I remain a nobody today! I am part of the ‘weak, foolish and lowly and despised things of this world,’ but I had a God experience that transformed my life!
              This is my layman’s answer to your daughter, if a president, a mere man can give a presidential pardon to prisoners then how much more so can HIS Majesty, a KING. Let me resolve it as follows: when Jesus was on the cross there were two condemned criminals on his left and right, they both done wrong and they both knew it! I would have probably been the one, who had done so much wrong that I myself had found my way to that cross, I would have known that there was this Jesus walking and talking and preaching but while He was doing all this, I just came for the free meal, and left to commit whatever heinous crime I had intended for that day. I was caught by the police, judged and sentenced to death for what I had done, coincidentally I would have been crucified with the Christ, not to share in his passion, not to fulfil any prophecy but rather because I deserved it. At the very last minute, I would have somehow because of fear or because of hope asked him to forgive me and to accept me.
              A lot of Christians don’t know this, but during the period which they choose to celebrate or observe Easter, Jesus the Christ, the messiah, after His crucifixion went into the depths of hell to preach the good news or gospel to people now spirits who were disobedient from the days of Noah! “ He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark ws being built.” 1 Peter 3 : 19
              So, whilst this may not answer the question directly, it’s really the best that I’m able to do as a Kingdom amateur. Perhaps certain celebrity pastors with many private jets, mansions and big bank accounts can provide more appropriate answer. I remain proudly a nobody!!!
              So, if the Greek God Zeus is really God, then we in trouble, you see Zeus could get angry at a whims notice, he was unpredictable and you never really knew where you stood with him, when he would get angry, what would anger him or please him. With Jesus, I where I stand!!! In the final analysis God loves all human beings!


              “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
              Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
              Click here
              "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

              Comment

              • Blurock
                Diamond Member

                • May 2010
                • 4203

                #67
                Originally posted by adrianh
                @Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)

                Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then?

                What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?

                She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.
                Christians who have studied the San people of Namibia have come to the conclusion that the San live closer to the Biblical principles than Westerners do. They respect nature and they respect other people. Their "ecological footprint" on earth is also very small, so they have very little negative impact on earth. I am not sure of the text, but the Bible tells us that those who live by the law, will be saved by the law. Under that I understand the laws of nature, which are also the laws of God.

                The Old Testament contains many laws and rules, the most famous being the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said that all of those rules boiled down to two things: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. If our adherence to rules or commandments isn't producing these two things, we've missed the entire point.

                In Romans, Paul writes of the law that was given to the Hebrew people through Moses. He argues in Romans that before Jesus it was through the law alone that we could find righteousness. Now that Jesus has come we can find righteousness in him not just in the law.It is however, not about Biblical laws, but its about a lifestyle that God wants us to follow.

                All this said, just listening to people will not save you. We with our flawed interpretation of God can not teach you. We hope that we can guide you to God, but in the end, you have to find your own Saviour. Read and study the Bible and other religious books. Seek God and God will find you.
                Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

                Comment

                • adrianh
                  Diamond Member

                  • Mar 2010
                  • 6328

                  #68
                  Ok great, but are those other people going to heaven or hell?

                  Comment

                  • Citizen X
                    Diamond Member

                    • Sep 2011
                    • 3411

                    #69
                    Adrian, such advanced questions you simply have to reserve for those who deserve them, the celebrity pastor, the self righteous Bible School graduate, the preacher boys, I ain’t neither! I’m at the very bottom of the list here….
                    Only a true ‘scattering of Africa,’ will appreciate what I’m saying here, the only time you’ll realise that Jesus is all you need is when Jesus is all you have! I turned to HIM only because I really had no one else to turn to! In my childlike manner I conducted a childlike introspection, ‘will HE chase me away if I approach Him, will He condemn me, Will He really help me, restore and deliver me if I go to Him sincerely. I can attest to the fact that he won’t chase you away, He won’t condemn you, He will deliver and restore you! So if you are a bona fide scatteling of Africa, a fugitive seeking refuge on some cold and dark night, He will ‘never leave you nor forsake you,’ and you don’t need no damn pastor to tell you this! The Lord himself will minister to you when pastors and churches forsake you he said, ‘I will build MY church and the gates of hell won’t prevail over it!” The king is not yet here, so certain pastors will do as they like, but I got some news for you, if you are a greedy pastor peddling the Word for profit! The king is coming, “Hy com Ja!” ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done!”



                    “Copper sun sinking low
                    Scatterlings and fugitives
                    Hooded eyes and weary brows
                    Seek refuge in the night


                    They are the scatterlings of Africa
                    Each uprooted one
                    On the road to Phelamanga
                    where the world began
                    And I love the scatterlings of Africa
                    Each and every one
                    In their hearts a burning hunger
                    Beneath the copper sun

                    Broken wall, bicycle wheel
                    African sun forging steel, singing
                    Magic machine cannot match your mind
                    being human being
                    African idea -- make the future clear.”




                    “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                    Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
                    Click here
                    "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

                    Comment

                    • Blurock
                      Diamond Member

                      • May 2010
                      • 4203

                      #70
                      Originally posted by adrianh
                      Ok great, but are those other people going to heaven or hell?
                      It is not for us to decide. Some people may tell you no, other may say yes. Even Christians differ amongst themselves. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims kill each other because of their respective interpretation of the law.

                      Let yourself be guided by God. Seek Him out, and all will become clear to you. Do not let yourself be fooled by false prophets who have only their own selfish interests at heart.
                      Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

                      Comment

                      • Citizen X
                        Diamond Member

                        • Sep 2011
                        • 3411

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Blurock
                        Christians who have studied the San people of Namibia have come to the conclusion that the San live closer to the Biblical principles than Westerners do. They respect nature and they respect other people. Their "ecological footprint" on earth is also very small, so they have very little negative impact on earth. I am not sure of the text, but the Bible tells us that those who live by the law, will be saved by the law. Under that I understand the laws of nature, which are also the laws of God.

                        The Old Testament contains many laws and rules, the most famous being the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said that all of those rules boiled down to two things: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. If our adherence to rules or commandments isn't producing these two things, we've missed the entire point.

                        In Romans, Paul writes of the law that was given to the Hebrew people through Moses. He argues in Romans that before Jesus it was through the law alone that we could find righteousness. Now that Jesus has come we can find righteousness in him not just in the law.It is however, not about Biblical laws, but its about a lifestyle that God wants us to follow.

                        All this said, just listening to people will not save you. We with our flawed interpretation of God can not teach you. We hope that we can guide you to God, but in the end, you have to find your own Saviour. Read and study the Bible and other religious books. Seek God and God will find you.
                        Amen, Brother! So you Blurock actually understand very clearly what I say when I draw a parallel between the ministry of death, i.e. preaching from mount sinai and the ministry of life, preaching from mount zion. He has written his laws on our hearts. Yes, those who lived under the law will be judged under the law, but the law is perfect and man is not perfect so I thank God for grace! It holds true each individual must engage in his own spiritual serach and make a call for his or her life! That said, God does love all human beings!!
                        “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                        Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
                        Click here
                        "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

                        Comment

                        • adrianh
                          Diamond Member

                          • Mar 2010
                          • 6328

                          #72
                          @Vanash - I can't tell my daughter this nonsense. As soon as simple logical questions are asked the entire house of cards simply folds in on itself and swallows itself up in mumbo jumbo. It is a crocodile that eats itself and dissapears when you ask it to find its own tail.

                          This is exactly why religion is a waste of time. It is a closed loop of nonsense that supports nonsense by quoting other nonsense.

                          Religion is the only topic where one can get away with answering any question with a nosensical made up answer. I'm sure glad that we don't build bridges this way, I can just imagine the conversation:
                          "So Tim, you are the engineer, will the bridge stand up to a magnitude 5 earthquake?".
                          "Well John, you see, it says in the great book that the first bridge was built from stone and it was cast upon the sea. Then came a great flood and the bridge withstood the flood. Then there was the great plague and locusts came and sat upon the bridge. But remember that the bridge will stand if you believe it will"
                          "Ok Tim, so should we shut down the bridge because of the impending storm?"
                          "Well you see John, you must have faith my brother, some will die and some will not, it is not for me to say whether the bridge will stand, I am only the vessel through which the bridge was built".

                          Ah, ok...

                          Come, come, the problem with religious circular arguments is that your argument eventually falls back to its natural state of "God will decide"...well then, if this is true then why bother with all the intermediate nonsense and simply say "I don't know, God will decide"

                          So, what is my bottom line again: Religion is a waste of time and effort because it falls flat on its face when confronted with simple logic.

                          @Vanash - give me a simple answer, no mumbo jumbo, spin doctoring doesn't cut it, anybody can use flowery language: Will they go to heaven or not?

                          Comment

                          • Citizen X
                            Diamond Member

                            • Sep 2011
                            • 3411

                            #73
                            No, Adrian, my purpose is simple: give hope, not take away away! Encourage, not discourage! Besides, as already mentioned ad nauseum, I'm just 'a small boy in the kingdom, i can't do anything," @vanash, "You just a small boy! You can't do anything, bloody agent! Come out, Come out, ba....., you've got rubbish in your trousers vanash!" So as the small boy in the kingdom, I'll leave those rather pertinent questions to my more esteemed bible school graduates! I learnt to love the Word and to love the Lord becuase there was a time in my life when 'all the kings horses and men, ' wouldn't have been able to put me back again even if they used that quality super glue you buy on the side of the street, it was only the Most High that could restore me and give me a renewed mind and purpose.....I'm a long way from home, what is natty doing so far from home? 'Natty dread in this babylon!" Many of us are familiar with the verse,'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, funny how they don't read the preceeding and far more compelling verse, 'to be present in this body is to be absent from the Lord!" This presence in my body is for me to be a real alien here, very far from home..'don't care what the world say, my brethern and i could never go astray, just like a bright and sunny day, my brethren and I are going to have things our way!"
                            “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
                            Spelling mistakes and/or typographical errors I found in leading publications.
                            Click here
                            "Without prejudice and all rights reserved"

                            Comment

                            • adrianh
                              Diamond Member

                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6328

                              #74
                              Eish...I don't take LSD so I am unfortunately unable to have psychedelic discussions....

                              ...best I stick with reality then...

                              Comment

                              • Dave A
                                Site Caretaker

                                • May 2006
                                • 22807

                                #75
                                Originally posted by adrianh
                                This is exactly why religion is a waste of time.
                                Certainly a pretty futile excercise arguing about it.
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