The case against Christian public holidays!

[Martinco]

It is for this very reason that I stated "I think this is my final post on this thread! The reality is that I sincerely respect all human beings regardless of their race, religion or political opinion!"

Vanash,

Thank you for your views but I must say as a Christian that I was getting very on edge with some of the views/statements made and although I still belong to the old school I can also think for myself.
My religion is important to me and as you said above, this thread is now "worn out".
I respect other people/cultures religious beliefs and in turn would expect them to respect mine.

[Blurock]

Funny that so many people are concerned about the "end times".

They consult gypsies and horoscopes and refer to Revelations as if it will reveal how the world will end. Many people have made predictions and we are now even referring to the Mayan calender and Nostradamus as proof of when the world would end.

Truth is - nobody knows. Even so, the signs are there, just as the blossoms on a fruit tree in spring. When you see the blossoms, you know that summer is near...

We don't know how long the summer will last. That's why I agree with Darkangelyaya - we have to live every day as if it is our last. Carpe diem!

[wynn]

Despite its appearances, the Book of Revelation is not describing supernatural events. It is giving a factual, down to earth history. All its “angels” are men, ministers of a powerful religious organization, who wore white vestments. They ministered in “Heaven”, which at Qumran was a platform open to the sky where prayers were offered at the high points of the sun. When the organization moved to Ephesus and Rome, “Heaven” was the upper floor of a cathedral.

An assumption that all events are governed by numbers and systems was a product of the Pythagorean education of Essenes, stated by Josephus (Antiquities 15, 371). Although they were in the process of discovering its fallacy, it gave a useful means of recording events in a disguised way that was understood only by their insiders. The whole book is very cleverly and accurately coded by these means.

See Dr Barbara Thiering's work at http://www.peshertechnique.infinitesoulutions.com/

If you read this it may cause you to look at the New Testament in a different light???? possibly with your eyes and mind open.
Or you can carry on mindlessly believing in the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'

[Willie0100]

Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO

[Citizen X]

Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO

A very good afternoon to you Willie,
Nice to ‘see,’ you again at TFSA! Willie, here's the thing: 1: Christmas 25 December was a Roman pagan public holiday. Christianity was initially against the Roman law and Christians were persecuted. Emperor Constantine in the 4^th century becomes a Christian and he decides to make Christianity the official religion. The 300 years before this no Christmas was celebrated!!!
I don’t dispute the birth of the Christ! For me there is no doubt that he was born!!! He was not born on 25 December, that’s impossible for many reasons, I’ll just give you 1 here:- 1. In Israel it’s Winter in December, the Romans would never have ordered a census in Winter, it would defeat their very own purpose and shepherds would never tend sheep out in the night of Winter. The sacrificial lambs had to be fat and healthy not thin or dead which is what would have happened had they tendered their flocks in Winter! The Apostle Paul and all the disciples never observed Christmas and Easter and in fact you will find no reference to Christmas and Easter in the Bible from the book of Genesis up to and including the Book of Revelation!!!
PROBLEM ”Certain pastors” know that Christmas and Easter is very big business for them, for some of them, their luxury overseas holiday comes straight from the church offering at Christmas so they going to be reluctant to tell their congregations the truth even they themselves do know the truth!!Secondly, certain pastors are acutely aware that if they do tell their congregation the truth about Christmas and Easter, the vast majority of the congregation is going to say: ‘No, this doesn’t sound right, we know the Bible says you must observe Christmas and Easter, and we going to leave this evil church and continue the way we have for generations!!’
All the leading Biblical scholars across our world will confirm every single fine detail I’ve shared in this entire thread as what I say is irrevocable and irrefutable!! But PEACE brothers and sisters. I just think that we should celebrate the birth of the Lord every single day and that we should commemorate Calvary every single day!!! Nothing wrong if you chose 25 December as a special day to commerate the birth but don't say that it's Biblical, becuase then I'm going to ask you a very easy question Where in the Bible???

[Blurock]

Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO

My daughter started something a while back. In stead of giving people presents, she'd rather give them vouchers to do or experience things. Try something unusual and exciting such as bungee jumping, a plane ticket, a visit to the theatre or parachuting. How about interacting with elephants or feeding cheetahs?

Someone suggested that we should support local businesses in stead of buying cheap imported tinsel bling bling presents. Buy a spa voucher or a hair cut and blow dry from a local hairdresser. Donate to a children's home or take an elderly person for lunch. Take some friends on a fishing trip for the day.

There are so many alternatives to the socks and ties and other boring presents we give.

[Willie0100]

Thanks Vanash, glad to be back. Blurock, just when I thought I was about to save money here you come with another version of spending..........O well suppose I'll have too!!!!!

[Blurock]

Thanks Vanash, glad to be back. Blurock, just when I thought I was about to save money here you come with another version of spending..........O well suppose I'll have too!!!!!

If you are a husband, father, or son, you end up paying. That's life! Who told you life is fair?

[Willie0100]

Transvaal certainly doesn't

[Citizen X]

“Now this looks like a job for me so everybody just follow me, cuz we need a little controversy... Attention Please" feel the tension soon, here's my 10 cents my 2 cents is free!”
This is not a religious debate! The question on the continued existence of the Christian holidays Easter and Christmas respectively are now in the public interest. The Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL) are inviting arguments in favour or objections against. Any member of the public may submit arguments in favour of these holidays or objections against the continued existence of these holidays. Arguments in favour or objections against may be sent to: Sipho Mantula: sipho@crlcommission.org.za and cc: chairperson@crlcommision.org.za and ceo@crlcommission.org.za
1. I am a Christian man, an evangelist at heart. I stand firmly AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS OF CHRISTMAS AND EASTER! These are nice holidays but they are certainly not holy days! I will submit my objections against these holidays!
2. Of the 7 billion on people on this planet, I’m at an immediate advantage in articulating my opinions and criticisms on any aspect to do with Christianity. My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lord’s servants I’m the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. I’m part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I don’t have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply don’t enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this ‘most important Christian list,’ My assertions on Christian public holidays are beyond reproach and not even a professor of theology will successfully be able to rebut anything I put forth. Think you can? Try me! One of my favorite hobbies and past times is extensive Bible Study! I don’t know the whole Bible but I’ve got the holy spirit to guide me and that is more than sufficient for any undertaking in His Majesties service!
1. Firstly as perhaps most importantly the basic tenet of Christianity is that you cannot force anyone to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that person must come willingly and not by duress. It’s actually against my religion of Christianity to force my religion on anyone! Similarly, if it’s common cause that we cannot force Christianity on anyone then it only follows logically that you cannot enforce Christian holidays alternatively perceived holy days on anyone. On the birth of the Messiah, this is something we need to commemorate every single day and not one on day only! On the cross of Calvary, we need to remember it and it’s significant every single day!
I’ll get right to the essential gist of this matter:-
2. The ignorance of the Church from it’s inception: The Church always believed that the Earth was stationery and further that the Sun revolved around the Earth and further that the Earth was the center of the universe and further that all other planets revolved around the Sun. A dispute occurred in the 17^th century: Galileo correctly asserted that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the Sun revolved around the Earth.. He argued that the scriptures themselves were actually not wrong at all but that rather the interpretation of such scriptures was very wrong. The Church only officially corrected this misconception in 1992!!!!!In 1992 the Pope officially confirmed that the Earth was not stationary and further that it was the Earth which revolved around the Sun and not the Sun around the Earth. In 1992!!!! I need to say this again! Only in 1992!!!!
3. My simple but very effective hypothesis: If one is a mathematician that it follows logically that such a person knows a great deal about mathematics and further that such a person has a mathematics textbook and is very familiar with this mathematics textbook, similarly, if one is a Christian, then it should also follow logically that such a person knows a great deal about Christianity and further that such a person is very familiar about his primary book of instruction which is the Bible;
4. I’m still laying foundation! Bear with me! I will unpack the argument against the Christian holidays of Eater and Christmas so adequately that not even a professor of theology would has written a million books will successfully be able to find any fault whatsoever with my assertion!
5. I’ll start with common sense first before I proceed to the actual arguments! In the entire new testament Jesus Christ, the messiah did not even state once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! The apostle Paul, who wrote most of the new testament, did not say even once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! Both Jesus and the apostle Paul observed the Sabbath on Saturday starting from sunset Friday. Both never revoked the Sabbath of Saturday in favour of Sunday not even once in the entire new testament, not even once, not directly, not indirectly and not even tacitly or by necessary implication.
6. I am of the belief that Jesus Christ my Lord, my saviour my liege, my master, was indeed born. For me the fact of his birth is as clear as night follows day! The assertion that he was born on the 25 December is a lie from the pit of hell! He was born, but he was definitely not born on the 25 December. The Bible itself does not state that Jesus was born on the 25 December. In fact there is very strong circumstantial evidence in the Bible that indicates that He was not born on the 25 December. Was He born, Yes, without any doubt whatsoever! Was He born on 25 December, definitely not!
7. The 25 December was already recognised as some form of public holiday alternatively day of celebration in the Roman Empire since 500 BC! It’s very unlikely that Jesus Christ was born on 25 December. (Luke 2:7-8). Biblically we are acutely aware that the shepherds were taking care of their flocks at the time of the Birth of Jesus. In Israel in December it’s Winter and also rains in winter in Israel.. Simple common sense will tells you that no shepherd past and present will attend to sheep at night on a cold Winter’s nigh when it’s raining! In any event there’s be next to nothing to graze on in Winter. Common sense again tells you that as a shepherd, you don’t want your sheep to die, the idea is to have them healthy for slaughter or sheering for wool. A shepherd will actually ensure that his sheep are in some form of a sheltered enclosure in winter. He will feed them in this sheltered enclosure. Just as a test, our Winter in South Africa is very mild in comparison to the Winter in Israel, lets hire 20 sheep and get you to look after them in some veld, preferably the informal settlement in Lenasia from 18:00 to 5 the next morning for about 20 days. Let’s see if you and your sheep will survive.
8. The census that Jesus parents had to attend according to Roman Law(Luke 2:1-4). Let me tell you a little something about the Roman empire, they were meticulous administrators and they furthered their own interest. A census in the Roman empire had many purposes, it was not just for population counts, it was also to establish a register of tax payers! Throughout their history(go check), the Roman Empire never conducted a census in Winter as it was impractical and would actually defeat their own purpose of counting people and getting their details in the shortest possible time and getting those people to go back to go do their work and further the interests of the Roman Empire. 2000 years ago, there was no cars, we had no etolling, so the roads were in a very poor condition. People had to either walk or travel by donkey or horse. The temperatures in Israel at that time in Winter was below zero. It’s freezing cold today, here in lenasia when it 14 degrees, I can’t imagine myself walking in this cold for some 20 km! Imagine travelling by donkey when it’s -10 degrees for some 40 km! I refer you to our own South African Census 2011. You didn’t have to go to own town of birth as Jesus parents were obliged to do under Roman Law at that time. You had a census employee come to your door, this was between 10 - 31 October 2011.In South Africa Spring comes upon us in September, October and November. It was mid spring when we held our census. It was very warm during October 2011. Even our government as ignorant as they are would never had census workers conduct a census in July in mid Winter!
9. Seasons: In South Africa these are our seasons: Summer: December, January and February, Autumn(AKA fall overseas): March, April and May, Winter, June, July and August, Spring: September, October and November. So our census took place in mid Spring in October 2011. NOW. In Israel these are the seasons and their periods: Summer 21 June to 22 September, Autumn(or fall) 22 September to 21 December, Winter :21 December to 20 March and Spring 20 March to 20 June. So 25 December was and is Winter in Israel. Israel is situate 29°-33° north of the equator, and is therefore a subtropical region. Heavy snow usually falls in Israel between December and March.
10. Biblically the most accurate indication of when Jesus was actually born is in Autumn AKA fall in certain countries. The reasoning(luke1:24-36). Firstly, Mary is the earthy mother of Jesus and Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist. “²⁴ After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. ²⁵ “The Lord has done this for me,” she said. “In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”²⁶ In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, ²⁷ to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”²⁹ Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. ³⁰ But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. ³¹ You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. ³² He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, ³³ and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” ³⁴ “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called^[a] the Son of God. ³⁶ Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
Continues..next post..word count restriction!

Oh, let's just start the examination in chief from the beginning, shall we!! As it was in the very beginning, so shall be in the end....

[Citizen X]

Continued from previous post....
1. Okay, so we now know based on what the Bible says that John the Baptist mother Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit i.e when the angel Gabriel went to her and told Mary that essentially she will become pregnant despite Mary’s assertion to the angel that she was a virgin. Right, simple logical tells you that if you can establish when John the Baptist was born, you will at the very least be able to establish the season or time of year when Jesus was born give or take 2 weeks. John the Baptist father is none other than the Biblical Zacharias, the Bible clearly tells us that Zacharias was a priest. One must appreciate something very simple about the Jewish people. They has a calendar, they had predetermined holy days and religious practices, they were diligent in observing their holy days and carrying out there religious practices diligently and perhaps more importantly on time i.e. when it was the predetermined time for observance of a holy day or religious practice, they done just that, on arrival of that time, they observed that day or they carried out that prayer.(Okay, a bit off the point, just a bit, Isaiah prophesied crucifixion 700 years before the Romans invented it!!! Also, 700 years before the birth of John the Baptist, Isaiah prophesied his birth by writing “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.”)..back to the point...In the book of Luke the Bible tells us that Zacharias was a priest serving under the priestly division of Abijah. Historical and Jewish religious calculations indicate that this burning of incense ‘when Zachariah’s division was on duty,’ was around June 14 to 20 of that particular year.In was on or about this period of his temple duties when the angel basically informed Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth who was Mary’s cousin would have a child, the angel further told him that he was to name his child John and ensure that this child never consumes alcohol. So this religious activity of burning incense and offering prayers in Israel by Zacharias who was a priest under the priestly instruction of Abijah takes place somewhere around 14 June. In Israel Spring is between 20 March to 20 June. So this prayer takes place in Spring in Israel. Also, the angel did not tell Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth is already pregnant but rather that “ Your wife will bear you a son and you are to give him the name Jon.”Luke 1: 13.” Now in Luke1:23 the Bible says, “ When his time of service was completed he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant.” His time of this kind of priestly service would have ended on or about 20 June(Still spring in Israel but the very end of Spring) : In Israel Summer is 21 June to 22 September. It’s therefore safe to say that John the Baptists conception occurred somewhere around the end of June(Summer in Israel). So we do the obvious we add nine months of pregnancy, namely Elizabeth’s pregnancy with John the Baptist. This brings us to the end of March. So John the Baptist was born on or about 30 March in Spring in Israel as Spring in Israel occurs between 20 March to 20 June. We know that there is a difference in age between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ by 6 months. Luke:²⁶ In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, ²⁷ to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.” So if you add 6 months to the end of march brings you to the end of September when Jesus Christ was most likely born. In Israel Autumn(or fall) is 22 September to 21 December. So the season that Jesus Christ was most likely born in was Autumn or as it is known overseas Fall in September but definitely not on 25 December!!!!!!!





2. Some background to the Zacharias connection: “King David (1 Chr 28:11-13) divided the sons of Aaron into 24 "courses" or groups (1 Chr24:1-4) to create an orderly schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed forthe year. Once these courses were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence each group would serve in the Temple (1 Chr 24: 7-19). Each of the 24 courses of priests would begin and end their service on the Sabbath for a tour of duty of one week (2 Chr 23:8,1 Chr 9:25).The Jewish calendar begins in the Spring (Nisan), so the first course of priests (Jehoiarib)would serve for seven days. The second week would then fall to the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the festival of Passover, when all priests would be present for service, sothe schedule would resume with the third course of priests (Harim) on the fourth week. By the tenth week, since both Passover and Shavu'ot had occurred, the 8th course of Abia (Abijah) would be called for temple service. By means of this arrangement, after the 24^th course was completed, the cycle of courses would repeat, so that in a given year each groupof priests would serve in the Temple twice per year (in addition to the three major festivals).There are several reasons to believe that Yeshua was born during the Fall, in particular,during the festival of Sukkot. Among the reasons cited are as follows:1. Yeshua's cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover.a. John's father (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the templeduring the course of "Abia," the 8th course of the year.(Luke 1:5, 1 Chr 24:10)b. Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nisan but both Passover and Shavu'ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias' service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan(May/June). c. It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty(Luke 1:23-4). Therefore, John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly afterthe third Sabbath of the month of Sivan (i.e., late Sivan).d. Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nisan 15). (Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet(Matt 17:10-13, cp. Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a special cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah for the festival.)2. Yeshua was conceived in late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot.a. Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36).Note that the "sixth" month refers to Elizabeth's pregnancy, not the month of Elul (cp. Luke 1:36). b. Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the conception of Yeshua (note that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)). c. From the 15th day of Nisan (John's birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri - the first day of the festival of Sukkot. If the day of his birth were the first day of Sukkot, the day of his circumcision would be the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Sinchat Torah, which, like the first day, is a day of sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again from Bereshit (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of "fulfillment" of the Torah.The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how he had come to fulfill theLaw and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17-18).”

3. Constantine: For the first 300 years after the excruciating cross at Calvary there was no organised Church. It was largely an under ground movement because Christians were been severely persecuted even put to death! Now to illustrate, even in the 21th century Christians are persecuted in countries such as Chine. So they do what the early Christians done, they have an under ground movement. Now, if you want to learn a very important lesson in what the early Christians went through and I strongly encourage you to learn this lesson, it’s going to make you a better person1 Just please do me this little favour, go to China and see if you can celebrate easter or Christmas there! See if you can build a nice little nativity scene1 At the very least you’ll get a beating of your life1 And this will be a very good lesson because you will finally be able to appreciate what the early Christians faced! Back to the point, during this first 300 years of the Church there was no celebration or acknowledgement of both Easter and Christmas! Just try to prove me wrong, I dare you!
4. There were two periods to the early Christians, the apostolic period, when among others the Apostle Paul led the church and the post apostolic period, this was the period in which early Christians were severely persecuted and therefore there was no early church. The Roman persecutions of Christians ended with a man called Emperor Constantine in AD 313 and in AD 325 was made the official religion of Rome. Rome as at this time worshipped many different God’s and had many holy days that they observed!
5. On 17 February Ad 380 the Edict of Thessalonica was decreed, this was when God the father, son and holy spirit was officially acknowledged and accepted.
6. The etolling connection!!!! To understand Constantine as I understand him, you simply need to put your self in his position at that time which was a difficult position to be in. If etolling could cause such a public uproar, how much more would a situation where Constantine tells his people some 12 days which are public holidays on which you worship many, many, many other Gods will be taken away from you! You see it was bad enough that he made Christianity the official religion, but it would have caused public demonstrations if he took away the Romans existing holy days and holidays, so all he done was to change the name of the existing holidays into so called Christian holidays/holy days. There was no Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas, there will never be any Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas!!!!!
7. I can provide you with no less than 10 Roman holy days that coincided with 25 December but I’m just going to mention 1: The festival of Dies Invicti Solis, the Dayof the Invincible Sun, on December 25. This was when Romans worshiped the SUN not the SON. So they simply then said it was the day on which the birth of the son of God would be commentated.
8. Okay, to surmise, for the first 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ Christmas was not observed or celebrated anywhere! It most curtained was not observed or celebrated in Rome. In fact Christmas cannot even be traced back to the early teachings or regular practices of the early Christians for that first 300 years.
9. EASTER: I have tons to say on how Easter is not Biblical, how Easter was not observed at all by the early Christians and how Easter has no Biblical basis whatsoever. I’m going to save this for another post, because there are a few things I feel that I simply have to saying this post!
a. I believe in tithing , it’s Biblical, what I don’t believe in is many pastors unjustifiably enriching themselves and their immediate families from the Church offering! The message of many pastors remain, money, money and more money! Certain pastors will even incorporate the 6 keys to business success in a sermon, it goes something like this, there you have it church, that was key 1, now wait for it, it’s gonna be good, wait for it, key no 2 to a successful business is coming! Funny how Jesus never had a sermon entitled ‘the 6 keys to business success,’
b. There is only one requirement to becoming a Christian. It found in the book of Romans, it’s simple and very straightforward. If I use a military term, ‘draft,’ if you want to be drafted into the kingdom of God, if you want to become a Christian, it takes only few seconds to be drafted into the kingdom of God and become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of Jesus Christ. It’s simple, if you confess with your mouth and you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was raised from the dead you will be saved!!!You don’t need no church piano playing in the background, no church music, no pastor, no nothing, you simply have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour and you will be saved!
c. The Bible does not say, God resists sinners, the Bible says, God resists the proud. In fact Jesus calls himself a ‘ friend of sinners,’ Biblically good people don’t go to heaven but believes do go to heaven. To be a believer you have to sincerely say that prayer found in the Book of Romans that you take you about 10 seconds to be officially conscripted and officially recognised by God!
d. There are many church services that I’m aware of that many pastors won’t have the guts to take part in! My favourite church service, ‘the stone you to death while you preach church service,’ Steven in the book of ACTS kept preaching until he was literally stoned to death. Another favourite service, the boil you in oil church service, okay, I’ll confess, the Bible does not indicate that the Apostle Paul was boiled in a large pot of oil but historians such as Josephus do give such indication. Invitation to certain pastors, care to take part in the boil you in hot oil church service???


Coming soon...valid reasons why Easter is not Biblical at all!!!

I know, I've got a nerve, as a member of the "weak, foolish and lowly and despised things of this world, I've got to have just a little nerve, don't you think?

[Citizen X]

Quality decision: I have made a quality decision not to submit my objection to the (CRL), on the basis that what the next man or woman does or doesn’t do is none of my business! I’m not against public holidays. Christmas and Easter are nice HOLIDAYS but they are not holy days. They were never holy days, they are not holy days and they will never ever become holy days.
1. Jesus was against religion. He demonstrated this on numerous occasions in the Bible. I’ll give you one example in my words, but you can refer to both the old and new testament for confirmation and assurance that I’m not taking things out of context and putting my own meaning into scripture!
2. During Jesus ministry, every single Jewish person by virtue of what their religion said, knew how to deal with a disobedient son. Their religion was very clear on the steps to be taken. Their religion gave them specific methods in the old testament on how to deal with any disobedient son. You simply took this disobedient son to the outer gates of the city, beat the hell out of him and then stone him to death. No one could tell any Jewish person of that day about what religion said about a disobedient son,as they were very familiar with their religion!!!
3. Jesus starts to tell them this story of this disobedient son. I’m confident that as soon as Jesus started speaking on this issue of a disobedient son, the sentiment must have been, ‘tell us something we don’t know), instead of confirming the religious requirement of stoning a disobedient son to death. Jesus say, despite the fact that this son squandered his inheritance and lived a terrible life drinking etc, his father took him back, gave him a ring, gave him sandals, the best robe that was available and ordered a celebration!!!! This was a huge departure from what the religious requirements were i.e. stone him to death!!!!!So there you have it, I’ve illustrated sufficiently how Jesus himself was against religion and not for religion!!!
4. Certain ignorant pastors, Christians, bible school students and bible school graduates: I’ve often heard with disgust how the aforementioned describe the Biblical ‘tax collector,’ and attempt to create parallels with SARS. I’ve got news for you! The Jewish people were not against the concept of paying tax and they were not against tax collectors! Let’s put this in context: In Jesus time, Jerusalem was in essence a colony of Rome. All tax collected was sent to Rome for the benefit of Rome. This money was not used to maintain the infrastructures or better the lives of Jews in Jerusalem. Rome chose Jewish people an employees to basically collect tax for Rome on commission. This is what angered the Jewish people! The tax was going to Rome, the tax collector was Jewish and was making a commission on the tax he collected from his fellow Jewish people. This was why tax collectors were hated!
5. It only takes a few seconds to become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of God. You don’t have to be born a Christian and you most certainly don’t need some special ceremony to make things official. This 1 requirement of becoming a Christian can be found in Romans 10:9-13. In short if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the son of God and was raised from the dead, you will be saved. It’s as simple and clear as that!!!!
This is my final post on this thread!

Okay, so I lied! That was not my last post..Here's my compromise to my fellow Christian brother and sisters...(aforementioned that is!)

[Citizen X]

An opportunity such as this would not have occurred had it not been for this question of Christian public holidays emerging for public comment. When I first joined TFSAM, TFSA members rightfully asserted that this is not a religious forum but rather a business forum. It’s also a forum in which we can address matters which are in the public interest. So, there you have it, my ground of justification.
The problem statement is very simple, “What must I do with this Jesus?” The prefect of Jerusalem Pontious Pilate first asked this very question in Matthew 27:22. My solution is very simple: You must merely accept Him and believe in Him! Nothing difficult there! Okay, to clarify, I’m not asking you for any donation, tin food or blankets, but you yourself can go and distribute such items to whomsoever may be in need!
1. The problem with religion is that it won’t always help you even if you do what it stipulates that you do! It may even cause you to be isolated and shunned! The law, the religion was very clear on leprosy, uncleanness caused by a bodily discharge and impurity resulting from contact with the dead. The law, the religion said, you must be sent away from that society, you must be secluded. So, if you were a woman and you had a continuance bleeding problem you were regarded as unclean and segregated, you most certainly could not come into the presence of a priest, temple and especially God! There was also a religious route to follow if you were a woman that suffered from this continual bleeding, you had to take a dove and a pigeon and perform such ritual before the priest and if you were healed you then sacrificed this dove and this pigeon.
2. In Mathew 9: 20- 22, Mathew introduces us to this woman with some issue of bleeding, the Bible is clear, she had this problem for 12 years. She said, something along the lines of , ‘if only I could touch his cloak I would be healed.’ The reasonable inference, she tried everything else, she done what the religion told her to do and she was no better, she had enough of religion. In fact, according to religion, she was not even supposed to be there out in the open and certain not touching the Most High, but there she was and she did touch his cloak and she was healed and guess what, The Most High did not forsake or shun her or put the religion to her, if religion was put to her and would have gone something like this, “You foolish, ignorant, arrogant woman! Don’t you know that the law says you must be secluded when when you have a discharge, and by the way that is just the monthly period, you have this horrible discharge for 12 years, you should be secluded, you are not even supposed to come in the presence of a an ordinary priest, yet you dare to come in the presence of the Most High, stone her to death!!!”Thank goodness and God for Jesus!If she had followed her religion she would have died a miserable death in a few years because of the continual bleeding
3. I’m at liberty to say a great many things which many of my Christian brethren are precluded from saying because they don’t have the privilege of my official status as the ‘heathen,’ ‘the lowly and despised things of this world,’ this is an exclusive club, you don’t get to join this club unless you really are the ‘lowly and despised things ,’ of this world! My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lord’s servants I’m the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. I’m part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I don’t have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply don’t enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this ‘most important Christian list,’
4. When I look at certain Christians(and only I as per my status aforementioned can really do so with good conscience) , I realise that if you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from them, there is absolutely nothing left of their Christianity because the sum total of their Christianity is Christmas, easter and Sunday church. If you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from somebody the lowly and despised likes of me, you take nothing from me at all! In fact, you give me more time to do the Lord’s work! You see, praise and worship is a daily labour of love, not a Sunday 1 hour burden, serving the Lord is a 24/7 job and paying homage to his birth and death are daily labour of love tasks. You can choose to fast and pray whenever to want to. A lot of Christian are surprised to hear that as a Christian you have a directive from the Lord, a simple one really, preach the gospel; Perhaps taking Christmas and Easter away from Christians will actually cause to buy some food and clothing for the poor instead of wasting huge amounts of money on clothing and food on so called holy or religious days which are not even endorsed in the Bible.
5. Becoming a Christian, you can embark in seconds, it really very simple: You simply have to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord, is the Son of God and was raised from the dead and you will be saved, I give you my word.
6. I love and serve the Lord because I know what He’s done in my life, I’m acutely aware of many horror stories He spared me from. I cognisant about what he’s doing in my life at present and I believe the good plan, purpose and mission He has for my life going forward. You see, I qualify as the ‘prodical son, a trillion times over! The law, the religion, was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, in short, you first beat the hell out of him and thereafter you and the rest of the community stone him to death and that was that! Now, here comes this Jesus says, NO, you don’t do that! You give him another chance, you accept him, you forgive him and you also restore him! Incidentally, The Lord promises restoration for you in all areas of your life! I’m not looking for any acceptance from anyone, I’ve already been accepted foetstoots by the Lord! I’m also not really looking for acceptance in a world that hates my God!
7. You see the religion, The law was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, Deuteronomy 21:18-21

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
8. So, by this law, I should have rightfully being stoned to death only a trillion and 1 times, but JESUS(not me, JESUS), said no you don’t! Luke reasons it rather quite effectively, ‘He was lost but now he was found!”
9. If you simply must have religion, then the Bible does cater for you! James 1:27 ” Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
10. Religion and law said that if you committed adultery, you must be stoned to death John 7
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


The single most important problem we have in the Christian community is that this is a kingdom but the King is not yet here, BUT, I’ve got news for you, you greedy pastors enriching yourself and your family in the name of Jesus: The King is coming!!! “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.” So, the kingdom can never really be in order without it’s king! You don’t need no pastor or church to pray for you, you can pray yourself! You can also fast! You should strive to learn the Word of God at every opportunity! Jesus, said, “If you love me, you will obey my commands.” If you really want religion, then let the very basis of your religion be what the Christ commanded, i.e. visiting and taking care of the sick, visiting prisoners and giving to the poor! And, as Jesus said when you give, “don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.” Don’t try and get attention or praise for the good you do. There is a certain pastor somewhere in the south that loves himself so much, he has a weekly publication in the local newspaper with his photo in as large as you can fit into a newspaper. He has conferred on himself and his wife numerous degrees and doctorates overnight and without having ever studied or wrote a dissertation for an accredited university. There are people in his church who are unemployed and who are living in abject misery. He on the other hand has the mansion, the luxury car, the big bank balance all from the church offering by the way. He’s always boasting about what his church done, giving a school money etc. You know when I see his picture in the newspaper, I feel like vomiting on him. I think that when his picture appears again, I will vomit on him and take it to his church and publically present it to him while he is preaching!

Now, here my Christian brethren, you my compromise with you clearly!(The aforesaid, that is!)

[tec0]

I don't understand the logic and or reason why people want to force others. If you want to take it away then take it away. But don’t expect people to respect other religions when you do. What is good for the one is good for the other. I can think of many holidays to strip from the calendar and I can promise you that the people that lose those days will not be happy about it.

So what will it be?

[Citizen X]

I don't understand the logic and or reason why people want to force others. If you want to take it away then take it away. But don’t expect people to respect other religions when you do. What is good for the one is good for the other. I can think of many holidays to strip from the calendar and I can promise you that the people that lose those days will not be happy about it.

So what will it be?

Good morning Tec0,
I see your reasoning! Here's the thing though, if what I'm saying is conjecture, then someone out there please prove me wrong!!!! If anyone is offended by anything I've said thus far, tell me why? Find fault in any of my reasoning(which by the way, the leading Biblical scholars this world over happen to agree with!)
Here's where I reconcile with my Christian brethren and bring this to a nice happy end: Genesis 1:26, "God gave man dominion over ALL things." So if we as mankind , as this species have decided among ourselves that, due to symbolic reasons and reasons of tradition, we deliberately choose to celebrate the birth of the Mesiah and commemorate alternatively pay homage to Calvary on very specific days of the Julian calendar, then just say so! We exercise our dominion over all things....