The case against Christian public holidays!

[tec0]

Well, I live because I enjoy it. I don't need holidays to get away from my life and I don't need to live to go on holiday. If people don't enjoy their lives then they are most welcome to call it quits and hit the road. There are way too many people on the planet already. At least I don't live in a brain dominated by fairytales.

Dismissing something before the fact is like messing with the cookies before you put them in the oven. You don’t know the answer. I don’t know the answer and science is drawing a big blank on that particular subject. So really who knows?

For me a "holiday" is about spending time with the people you love because the day was made available to you. In a world that is pressed for time, this I think still holds meaning. That is my case and point. If want to take that freedom away then that is your problem.

Just don’t make it mine

[adrianh]

Aye well, I am free to dismiss whatever I want, just as others are free to believe whaterver they want. What is wrong with my view, its my choice, I don't believe that Alice went down the rabbit hole.

You see, I spend every day with the people I love, I don't need a special occasion to do so. I make the most of all the holidays, you'll be amazed how much beer you can drink over Christmas.

[Blurock]

I do not understand why we should tamper with Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas. These days are celebrated all over the world in Christian countries. According to sensus stats the majority of South Africans are Christians. Or is this tampering by the non-Christians?

Why not get rid of other days that nobody even knows what and why we are celebrating it. The 16th of December is such a day where only a handful of Voortrekkers committed to an oath. I have respect for that and support their observance of the day, but the rest of our population have no understanding of this.

It does not matter to me whether Christmas is celebrated at the wrong time of the year. Just as it does not matter whether observing the Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday. Let's be practical. God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. He did not say which day it was.

That is the problem I have with churches. They want to impose their teachings and their own form of religion on us. Don't try to be clever and analyse or institutionalise everything. The Bible shows us that God used simple people to spread his Word. All we need to do is follow the Word of God.

[Blurock]

I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.

Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.

Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?

Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.

Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!

The corporate world already provide for compassionate leave so that people from different religions can observe their holy days. Ascension day was taken away some time ago, but Christians still have the opportunity to apply for leave if they wish. Jews, Muslims and Hindus are allowed to take 2 days leave p.a. for religious purposes.

With regard to SA closing down from the 16th of December, that has to be addressed to the unions, not by taking away the holidays. Unfortunately (fortunately for some) summer is seen as holiday time. Europe is far worse and close down for 6 weeks!

[adrianh]

@Blurock - you make a lot of sense.

[Dave A]

Reading this made me think of a story I heard many years ago about a guard posted in a particular spot for a few hundred years (which I had understood was a true story). So I went searching for the details on Google.

I didn't find what I was expecting, but perhaps I found something even more poignant - always question the process by Steve Rowe.

Let me recount a story from the television show Babylon 5. In one episode there is the description of guard posted in the middle of an empty courtyard. There is nothing there to protect. When one of the characters, Londo, questions why, he finds that no one, not even the emperor, knows why. After doing some research, Londo discovers that 200 years before, the emperor's daughter came by the spot at the end of winter. The first flower of the spring was poking up through the snow. Not wanting anyone to step on the flower, she posted a guard there. She then forgot about the flower, the guard, and never countermanded her order. Now, 200 years later, there was still a guard posted but with nothing to protect. There had been nothing to protect for 200 years.

This demonstrates the unfortunate power of process. It often takes on a life of its own. Those creating the complex system of rules expect it to be followed. Once written down though, people stop thinking about why it was done. Instead, they only expect it to be carried out. This often leads to situations where work is being done for the sake of process instead of the outcome. It is from this situation that bureaucracy gets its sullied reputation (well, that and the seeming ineptitude of many bureaucrats). Process can easily become inflexible. This is especially true in the technology industry where process is embedded in the code of intranet sites and InfoPath forms.

I encourage you to constantly revisit your process. Question it. Why do you do things the way you do? Is there still a reason for each step? If you don't know, jettison that step. Simplify. You should have just enough process to get the job done, but no more. Once again, I'll re-iterate. You hire smart people. You pay them to think. Let them.

This isn't to say that all process is bad. Having common ways of accomplishing common tasks is efficient. If a process truly makes things more efficient, it should be kept. If not, it should be killed. What was at one time efficient probably isn't any more. Be vigilant.

For the record, I suggest if we're going to have a commission to revisit religious public holidays, they may as well finish the job. Let them revisit all public holidays.

Maybe we do need a new plan - a "second transition" for public holidays as it were.

(In which case, I quite like Wynn's idea And make it the Monday after payday when some staff don't pitch up anyway)

And in case you think I'm going soft, to my mind if someone wants to take a religious holiday that happens to fall on a normal working day, they're welcome to take it out of ordinary paid leave or unpaid leave. It's not compassionate leave, family responsibility leave, sick leave etc.

[Citizen X]

I do not understand why we should tamper with Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas. These days are celebrated all over the world in Christian countries. According to sensus stats the majority of South Africans are Christians. Or is this tampering by the non-Christians?

It does not matter to me whether Christmas is celebrated at the wrong time of the year. Just as it does not matter whether observing the Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday. Let's be practical. God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. He did not say which day it was.

That is the problem I have with churches. They want to impose their teachings and their own form of religion on us. Don't try to be clever and analyse or institutionalise everything. The Bible shows us that God used simple people to spread his Word. All we need to do is follow the Word of God.

Good evening Blurock,
1. I do agree with certain aspects of your post but certainly not all. Let me elaborate. Just because people were engaging in a certain activity for centuries and all over the world does not make that activity valid. The Church for centuries asserted that the Earth was the centre of the universe, that it was stationery and did not move and that the Sun and all other planets revolved around the Earth and not that ther Earth revolved around the Sun! On the basis that this was accepted as the truth and norm did not make it valid reason for continuing in this misunderstanding simply because that’s the way it always was. The Pope only officially corrected this lie in 1992! If it about holidays, that’s’ a different story and I’m willing to concede but it’s not just about holidays, the vast majority of Christians believe Easter and Christmas to be Biblically endorsed holy days. The Church in general have tacitly by way of omission contributed to this lie! In my experience, I’ve noticed that during Easter and Christmas Christians actually believe that these are their Christian holy days when it never was, it isn’t and it will never be Biblically based holy days;
2. I reiterate that we must worship in ‘spirit and truth as Jesus himself said we should do. There is no Biblical truth whatsoever that Christmas and Easter are Biblical holy days;
3. The idea of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ was actually always problematic especially to the early Christians and early Church especially in the first 300 years after the cross at Calvary. If you research this matter of celebrating the birth of a religious figure despite the number of textbook you consults, articles on the matter and tons of eBooks you will definitely find that the early Church and the early Christians especially those who actually spent time with Jesus and thereafter his disciples and the Apostle Paul and his many teachings perceived the idea of celebrating the birth of a religious teacher to be very peculiar and even blasphemous. You must put yourself into their position, they reasoned that to be born into this world was actually nothing to celebrate. What was important to them was leaving this world in death in a state(by virtue of conduct and sins and righteousness) that was acceptable and pleasing to God. So it was never about birth but rather about how you conducted yourself in your life!
4. The Bible itself, the new testament tells us very clearly about who it was that attached significance to the celebration of a birth: These were pagans: The Romans observed the birthdays of the Caesars;
5. Shepherds In Jesus time Shepherds were regarded as such lowly and despised people that they were not even allowed to testify in court as it was taken for granted that their testimony would not be true! Yet, God chose Shepherds to witness the birth of the Christ

[adrianh]

How is it that each person who reads this book gets to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions (which incidentally seems to justify whatever they want it to at the time). What I don't get about this whole lot is that one would think that a manual for life would be clear and concise, not totally ambiguous and written by goat herders 2000 years ago. Howcome there is nothing about dinosuars, ice ages, science, technology, warfare, nuclear weapons, Flying Spaghetti Monsters etc. Ag nee ou broer, you can go around as many circles as you want, I think the entire exercise is a total waste of time. I am totally amazed at how much time people waste on arguing with one another about their special interpretation of their special fairy tale.

[Blurock]

@vanash. You are confirming that every church and religion interpret the Bible in their own way. This is exactly the problem. We create a god and religion to serve our own selfish needs. Many religious practices are man made and not biblical. Easter though has a deeper meaning and goes back to the Jews when they fled Egypt and Passover was instituted. This has a bearing on the coming of Jesus and now celebrates the fulfilment of the prophesy.

The celebration of Christmas, without all the tinsel and bright lights also has a place in re-affirming our dependence on God. It has a deeper meaning and although celebrated at the wrong time of the year, it is about our relationship with God. Not the church the state or man.

Lets not fall into the Devil's trap to argue about who is right or wrong. Lets accept the Word of God as told by shepherds, fishermen and simple working class people.

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” Luke 18.

[tec0]

A well known comedian started disrespecting "religious" people and it is reported that he has a following on a social network. The thing is, he like most overestimate there importance and underestimate the people they are insulting thus you end up with a volatile situation.

It is called "respect" and the moment it goes out of the window things will go wrong very quickly. See the boss is only the boss if people value there standing as an employee and as a individual. However if the boss disrespects the employees, he/she will be faced with many challenges and all of them will cost much more to fix.

Fact is the employer gets 262 days of a year "give or take" and is asked to give up only 8 days of that estimated 262 days? Depending on religion and if the company has a policy on public holidays...

So is it really that unreasonable to ask that the holidays are to be left alone?

[adrianh]

"Respect" - What makes religion different from any other topic? Why should it be treated with kid gloves but anything else is open to debate? The bottom line is that people have different views and that it is up to the individual to decide how he/she reacts to comment or debate. I will never let anybody tell me that something is not open to debate and anyhow, if a person gets upset by the view of another person, then the problem lies with the one who gets upset. The fact that I bark at people walking down the road says a lot about me but nothing about their beliefs. No my friend, I teach my kids to defend themselves verbally because there will always be people with different ideas to them, and besides, as far as I am aware it is the duty of each religious person to educate the non-believer.

[tec0]

"Respect" - What makes religion different from any other topic?

Nothing makes it different...

You can debate anything respectfully? An example; I say this, you say that and then we agree to disagree and that is the end of it. Why must this be treated any differently? What this comedian did was wrong; he is using this topic to gain notoriety rather than to debate. It is his pedestal now.

But I do agree with one thing if you are going to take one religion's holidays away then that MUST become the standard for ALL religions. If you are going to remove one religion's right to be open and public then the same must be true for all others.

Now how far will this go before it creates real friction?

Will it stop with removing decorations?
Will it stop with not allowing groups to pray over loud speakers?
Will it stop by not allowing groups to wear their religious clothing in public?

How much friction will this generate?

Not to mention that marketing on year end is going to be a nightmare for almost any retail shop.

How much money will businesses lose because of this?

[wynn]

And then what is next, Exterterrestrials

I sometimes wonder how many people throughout history suffered unnecessarily because of this?

[adrianh]

@wynn - we're on the same wavelength.

[Phil Cooper]

I believe ANY form of organised religion should be banned.

Why? Simple.

Show me ANY religion that does not preach peace, love, brotherly love, forgiveness, etc.


If the above is true, why is it that so many wars have been fought, and people killed, over religion?

Christians and Jews fight Muslims, and vice versa.

Catholic Christians attached and killed Protestant Christians in N Ireland, and vice versa.

In Muslim faith you are not permitted to kill other Muslims. But Sunnis will kill Shiites, and vice versa.

Get rid of religion and the above disappear.

But I am sure something will rise in its place. It is the nature of man!