E-tolling or E Thief?

[Citizen X]

According to Dr Roelof Botha you will only be saving in many ways when you are in essence tolled. In fact according to him you will even be able to generate R8.84 for every rand that you spend! There are other benefits as well, you’ll save so much time that you’ll be able to spend more time with your family!
Here’s where Dr Botha’s spin goes horribly wrong. You are currently using those very roads that you will be charged for using at a later date. You using those roads now, only you not currently paying anything! Do you find that you currently have more time to spend with your family? You find that you spending less time in the traffic? Since you using the very same roads that you will be paying for using in the near future, are you currently making R8.84 rand just for using the roads for nothing at the moment?
The only difference going forward is that you will be paying for using the very same roads that you are currently using without paying anything! So how on earth will you be saving or how on earth will this be beneficial to you when you were paying nothing for using these roads yesterday and today you paying something? There is no way this logic will work with South Africans.
This is his exact words:
"Go to the trouble of calculating the time that you are likely to save, or probably are already saving, by using the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project as opposed to if it had never occurred, and take that time saving and place a value on it in terms of what you can earn if you were to be productive or how fit you could become if you go to the gym or maybe improving the relationships with the rest of your family and spending more time with them."
Dr Botha we are using the very same roads today that we will be paying for tomorrow and there’s no added benefit. The only difference is that we will be paying for using these roads going forward. Nothing you say makes any sense. How do you go from a situation of not paying anything at all for driving on these very same roads to a situation where tomorrow you pay for using these very same roads???How can you save when all the trucks that transport consumer goods will be paying tolls? It's common sense that this will cause the price of food to go up!!!

[adrianh]

Come on, now you're spinning it it the opposite direction. He is simply saying that the money that was spent to upgrade the roads saves you time and money. Sanrail is trying to get somebody to foot the bill.

[Blurock]

Come on, now you're spinning it it the opposite direction. He is simply saying that the money that was spent to upgrade the roads saves you time and money. Sanrail is trying to get somebody to foot the bill.

and the profits are being paid to a company in Austria in stead of a fund to maintain the roads.

[Citizen X]

Here’s my gripe with economists in general: Despite the litany of things an economist can say, to date they unable to solve the problem of unlimited human needs with limited resources. They unable to solve unemployment problems, they fail dismally in solving the problem with famine. The leading economists failed to forecast the global economic crisis and take proactive steps to prevent such a crisis. So, please enlighten me, why exactly do we have economists? What is it that they in actual fact do that is beneficial? If you a mechanic by profession you should be able to a fix a car, if you an economists you should be able to fix the economy. Compiling reports and saying that this study or the other reveals a certain set of facts that can be disputed by other economists helps nothing and no one. Besides in general economists are not unanimous on the main economic issues. They all have different opinions!
According to Dr Botha, you’ll either be able to generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling or you’ll be able to save money and/or time. Now here’s where this logic really does fail. You are currently driving past all the Sanrail structures, it’s only that when you drive past these structures and effectively use that road you not e charged or e tolled, you don’t pay anything. So by implication if you’ll be able to generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling then how much more can you save or generate now when you are paying nothing?

[Justloadit]

So Vanash, according to the economists, we should have more money in the bank cos of the savings we are having currently by not having to pay eTolls yet.

Well you know what, I aint seen it, in fact the balance gets lower every month.

What a load of bull they feed us.

[Citizen X]

Absolutely, in fact, they provide that when you do actually start paying for every rand that you spend on etolling you'll either make or save R8.84. You will be put in such a nice position that you'll have more time to spend with your family and even some more time for the gym.
From what is out there publically many are saving that you'll pay about R600 per month. I don't know how accurate this is. If we assume that you do pay R600 per month and we accept the savings formulae then you essentially making R5304 or saving R5304 per month. In principal I'm not completely against pay a toll on the basis that monies will be used maintain and improve the infrastructure. I am soley against the amounts of money we'll be charged. They should charge everybody a flat rate of R50 per month. Eventually they'll make the money spent on the roads.

[adrianh]

I am watching a rerun of 3rd degree debate on etolling between Dr Botha & Vavi. I must agree with Vanash, the spin is absolutely absurd. The good doctor is unable to quantify the R8.. figure and all he does is refer back to his 'so called' study without showing how that figure was derived.

Ok, I concede, the good doctor is smoking his socks.

[Citizen X]

The tragic turn of events for us as South African's is the clear message we getting from Government i.e. Pay or else.! So this will be a grudge payment, which we really don't want to make but becuase of the consequences of not paying, everyone will pay...

[wynn]

Just out of curiosity, how much does an articulated vehicle carrier pay and would it pay to ride onto the back of one at the beginning of and roll off at the end of the toll you use???

I smell a business opportunity!!!

[Citizen X]

You exactly right with the business opportunity! Since there are economist out there that will argue that you'll save and/or generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling, then I have a business/investment offer for you! Any economist can simply buy my etolling package, i.e. they pay my monthly etolling fee and in return they get to save and/or generate R8.84!! How can you turn this opportunity down and for good measure I'll also throw in some extra minutes for you to spend at the gym!

[Justloadit]

Just out of curiosity, how much does an articulated vehicle carrier pay and would it pay to ride onto the back of one at the beginning of and roll off at the end of the toll you use???

I smell a business opportunity!!!

What will be interesting, is that the eTag works wirelessly, so effectively the system would pick up all the vehicles on the roll back that have eTags installed, the number plate recognition system, is a back up for when you do not have an eTag.

Now prove that you were not using the toll road.

[Citizen X]

Sanrail and your bank account? I stand to be corrected on this, but it is my personal understanding that Sanrail will have direct access to your bank account, not just a debit order facility but direct access i.e. to go into your acount at a whims notice or no notice at all and simply deduct whatever is necessary. If this is indeed the case, then this put make Sanrail the worst creditor we've ever had in South African history as no other creditor has such powers. I get that this is about money, we must basically pay or if we ommit to then we effectively breaking the law!

[Citizen X]

My brother inlaw sent me an interesting email about Sanrail doing the rounds. It does provide another perspective. See attached PDF....

[Citizen X]

De Lange v Smuts 1998(3) SA(CC)
1. When the notion of Sanrail being granted law enforcement powers made the public rounds, it immediately struck a cord with me. It brought to recollection a leading case wherein a creditor was given law enforcement powers and the constitutional court ruled that it was in essence unconstitutional for a creditor to have law enforcement powers based on the separation of powers doctrine;
2. Owing to the fallibility of human memory I could not recall the name of the case or the LLB subject that it belonged to, so started to look through my old textbooks and notes, and just like it goes when you looking for something, the thing you looking for will be in the last place you look. I found it! It rightfully belongs to the subject Constitutional law;
3. There was a subsection of the insolvency act that provided that if a person was called to appear before a meeting of creditors and this person either refused to be sworn in or to produce a required book or document or answer any question the presiding officer could commit such a person to prison!
4. The central idea is that a non judicial officer(someone not of the courts) cannot commit a person to prison. The separation of powers allow for the Judiciary, The Executive and the legislature. Judge Ackerman concluded that because non judicial governmental officers lack the independence of the judiciary, non judicial officers cannot commit an uncooperative witness to prison;
5. The situation does somewhat change when you give a non judicial officer(Sanrail) powers of the executive or judiciary which is what is happening now. If Sanrail are given law enforcement powers it simply means that your creditor, the person who you owe money to can now wave a legal stick to you. The day this happens this will be a day that will live in infamy. Sanrail could prove to be the worst creditor you’ve ever known!!!
6. “Judge Sachs agreed with Judge Ackermann’s majority judgment, but on separate grounds. He evaluated the constitutionality of the subsection within the context of separation of powers rather than that of freedom rights. He then applied the principle that only judicial officers should have the power to punish misconduct or penalise recalcitrance by means of imprisonment, and concluded that the subsection contravenes the principle of separation of powers as contemplated by the Constitution because it entrusts authority to order incarceration to persons who are not judicial officers. Judge Sachs consequently agrees with Judge Ackermann’s distinction, which allows magistrates to order committal to prison and denies that power to non-judicial government officials.”

“In his majority judgment Judge Ackermann held that the subsection concerned is unconstitutional only to the extent that it authorises a presiding officer who is not a magistrate to issue a warrant committing an examinee at a creditors’ meeting to prison.”

[Citizen X]

As at today’s date we all using the toll roads. We just not being e-tolled as yet. Now if one postulates that in the future when you e-tolled you’ll either save and/or generate R8.84 for every rand you pay, how much more shouldn’t you be making today when you are paying nothing? Did you have some extra time today for the gym as a direct result of using the toll roads? Did you have extra time to spend with your family today as a direct result of the toll roads? Did you get to work any faster today as a direct result of the toll roads? The reality is that the traffic is still as bad as it always was and will only get worse1 Think of it like this: the quantity of road users will continue to increase not decrease. Students finishing university and starting their first jobs will be buying cars, these extra cars will be on the road, this will worsen traffic, not make it any better. The number of new road users will simply increase and increase…
So my lucrative offer stands: Anyone that believes that they will be saving and/or making R8.84 for every rand spent on e-tolling can please buy my e-tolling rights i.e you pay my monthly e-toll bill and in return you can then save and/or make that R8.84 for every rand spent…If you not saving and/or making money due to using the toll gates today, then, please answer me this: How on earth will you be saving and/or generating money when you pay????