Violence in our schools

[HR Solutions]

It doesn't always work that way

No it doesn't, but 90% of the time it does work that way. Its a good grounding to at least have and build on.

[adrianh]

HR - I don't know, it's very difficult to say, some kids just follow their own minds and some get into drugs n stuff. I agree that the most important part of a kids being is moulded around what goes on in the home but they are still free agents who follow their own minds. I think the trick is to be in constant touch with them, their lives, their education etc. I find that the biggest problems occur when parents are out of touch with their kids. We interact with the girls all the time, we all know what is going on in each others lives and we all support one another. It is easy to tell if something is off or if their is a problem if you interact with them all the time.

[pmbguy]

Adrian I am rather similar to you. My two older siblings were the model of the perfect kids. I on the other hand was a wild child. I did what I wanted, went where I wanted and could not care two shits about what they had to say. I settled down when I was about 21 and now at 29 I am totally settled down. I think that all that discipline all those lessons they tried to instil in me has kicked in as an adult. I remember them saying that one day I will understand and now I do. I guess my point here is that even though a child may act totally against their parents will and have a mind of their own, the discipline advice and life lessons do surface later in life.

[adrianh]

@pmbguy, yes, I agree, it does surface eventually. My youth was a blur or stuffing about, drugs, riding bikes, crashing cars and doing mostly lots of stupid things. I did national service at about 22 and that settled me down. I found myself at age 42 and looking back a lot of who I am today is due to basic lessons learned when I was very young.

I don't have simple answers for these issues, there were kids in high school with me who got smacked every day yet they would still do the same stupid thing the next day. Then there were the kids who could do nothing wrong and also ended up nowhere in life. Violence in school, it's always been there, kids used to fight in the toilets and smack each other senseless, they would meet in the park after school and have a rumble. Our school motto was that we would probably not win the soccer, rugby, cricket or whatever match but we would win the fight afterwards.

I think that some people are hyper creative, if the creativity is not directed they become serious $h1t stirrers. Look at gangsters, many of them are not stupid at all, they know how to do business and they sure know how to enforce discipline. What is the difference between a drug lord who worked his way up through the ranks and a legitimate business man...could it be only their merchandise, marketing methods and methods to enforce discipline...food for thought!

[pmbguy]

...What is the difference between a drug lord who worked his way up through the ranks and a legitimate business man...

Sure I think that businessmen and gangsters have allot in common. I think that sometimes its a thin line as to which way a child could turn out. Some have the ability to become either a great businessmen or a great gangster. That which pushes them in either direction is often up to their upbringing. Or it could even be one random incident – butterfly effect



I feel that a naughty kid is an intelligent kid. Testing the environment, pushing boundaries. When I look at how the guys turned out in my class, most of the ones that sat in front of class, never partied never stepped out of line are working in dead-end jobs today. I would say half of the guys in my naughty group are drug addict gum balls and the other half of the naughty group own their own business and doing well. It is perhaps related to not being averse to risk taking. This example may not extend to anybody else’s experience. I also don’t want to somehow advocate being a bad naughty kid, but this is simply how it played out for the guys in my class. In my example the naughty kids who could pull themselves right ended up the most successful.

[Dave A]

The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?

That notion ignores the Dr. Spock effect. Some say his books and theories led to the moral degeneration of the USA.

Certainly a powerful factor in the equation.

[pmbguy]

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[Citizen X]

That notion ignores the Dr. Spock effect. Some say his books and theories led to the moral degeneration of the USA.

Certainly a powerful factor in the equation.

Benjamin Spock was a leading authority on raising children, he had his critics.
There was a bizarre rumor that went around for years, especially on the internet, that Benjamin Spock’s son committed suicide. This is actually not true; it was in fact his grandson who committed suicide in 1983

[Justloadit]

Unfortunately it joins dots back to Dr. Spock and his methods, and lays the question whether the initial upbringing created the knock on effect.

[tec0]

I suppose if someone wants to hurt a child and call it discipline then that is there point of view. I still think if you are willing to hurt a child that, that is a sickness and not a solution. A proper foundation starts with love and attention. In later life those foundations will make for a strong mind and things like peer-pressure will fail. I know this to be true.

If a 16 year old is out of line then “remove” that 16 year old from the class. By doing so you are setting a precedence that the other students will note. Fact is you don’t need a criminal in a classroom you don’t need a criminal stalking the school grounds.

The needs of the masses comes first. It is a simple truth and one that can be implemented without any difficulty. All you need is basic security and if the child is out of line, phone for mom or dad tell them that their child is disruptive and that is the end of it. Mom or dad removes the child and eventually the child will realise that more and more schools will not accept the student in question.

[HR Solutions]

If a 16 year old is out of line then “remove” that 16 year old from the class. By doing so you are setting a precedence that the other students will note. Fact is you don’t need a criminal in a classroom you don’t need a criminal stalking the school grounds.

No that is not a fact at all !! You cannot keep removing a person from a class. After you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !! We have an obligation to educate children. If you keep removing a kid or the same kid all the time, he is NOT getting educated !! Where do you think this is going to lead ? He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!

The needs of the masses comes first. It is a simple truth and one that can be implemented without any difficulty

I can only laugh very hard at this comment.

[tec0]

No that is not a fact at all !! You cannot keep removing a person from a class. After you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !! We have an obligation to educate children. If you keep removing a kid or the same kid all the time, he is NOT getting educated !! Where do you think this is going to lead ? He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!

I can only laugh very hard at this comment.

fter you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !!

See here is the key to your way of thinking. “You deem that his friends will want to be removed from school

Realistically this will not happen unless it is a gang. Fact is violent offender regardless of there age can be treated as an adult in the eyes of the law. Once the criminal in the school are deemed by law to be seen as an adult steps can be taken. By law he will end up in a correctional facility where he can exercise his right to an education.

He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!

No... Drop outs can still get an education. I am a dropout I got an education and is working on getting a "higher education aka Degree" I have many qualifications and never had to resort to crime. Fact is if you want to better yourself you can better yourself.

But lets say you want to hurt this "bully" and call it discipline. What is to stop him from driving a sharp object into your kidney? How is a hiding going to stop any form of attack on other students and or teachers? Fact is you need security. It doesn't matter how you cut it you will need a secure school otherwise any system you introduce will fail.

[tec0]

To be fair I will answer the same questions stated above.

I personally believe security "scanning for weapons are easy enough" The technology is good and not that expensive. Also this will flag any student that has a weapon and allow for investigation.

Second question how to a teacher protect themselves? The answer I would imagine is twofold. First by Eliminating weapons and second by having security camera’s and personnel you can intervene and perhaps stop the attack OR help the teacher to get help if the attacker was successful. it is not a 100% but it is better then nothing.

So how would you protect the teachers, students against criminals? By removing the criminal.

[Justloadit]

if the child is out of line, phone for mom or dad tell them that their child is disruptive and that is the end of it. Mom or dad removes the child and eventually the child will realise that more and more schools will not accept the student in question.

The problem here is the parents are not interested and quite frankly do not give a damn, that is the reason the kid is a mess in the first place. There is no discipline at home any way.
Most parents feel that the school is supposed to instil discipline.

[Dave A]

I get the sense that issues are being confused here - at the expense of a coherent conversation.

Why some kids are ill-disciplined/violent and what should and should not be done in early formative years to prevent them getting to this point is a very different issue to when the discipline is long gone, their habits and values are established, they're out of control, and someone needs to protect themselves or other innocents from the harm these delinquents are causing.

Claiming measures as appropriate/inappropriate for formative issues has no correlation to the measures appropriate/inappropriate for more mature, hardened delinquents.

If the conversation is to get anywhere at all, you have to separate "how kids become violent delinquents" from "what to do with violent delinquents".