Violence in our schools

[Citizen X]

The Glenvista High incident is just one of many involving children in schools in South Africa today…


I thought of this from a completely different perspective. The perspective that a child is now subject to a different legislation which has been in force since 1 April 2010 namely the Child Justice Act 75 of 2008.

The brainchild to prevent a child from the harsh exposure to the criminal justice system and if the child accepts responsibility a prosecutor may now implement a diversion option which in terms of the act is a diversion of a matter involving a child away from the formal court procedures in a criminal matter. The child has to be assessed by a probation officer who should be a social worker to report on the child’s age, education, circumstances. This report must be handed to a prosecutor with the idea that a child should not go to prison but can be dealt with in our legal justice system in a different manner with the purpose of reintergrating these children back into society. The child’s parent is paramount in all these decisions. There are many diversion options and they include: this is for a schedule one offence such as common assault:Oral or written apology, Formal caution with or without conditions,Placement under supervision and guidance order; reporting order; compulsory school attendance order; family time order; peer association order; good behaviour order; an order prohibiting the child from visiting, frequenting or appearing in specified places;Referral to counselling or therapy;Compulsory attendance of vocational, educational or therapeutic programmes;Symbolic restitution;Restitution of a specific object;Community service; Provision of some service or benefit by the child to the victim; orPayment of compensation.


The issue for me is that we live in a very violent society, many of our strikes are violent and these strikers have children and a community from which they come. So if kids are happening to watch tv and see their very own parents engaged in violent strikes, that proportion of kids are likely to behave similiarly when dealing with issues. The community has crime and other socio-economic issues. These children will therefore be a product of this community and you should expect them to behave in such violent and irrational behaviour. I therefore respect that a child is prosecuted differently to an adult.


Assault: Regardless of whether a child assaults a teacher or a teacher assaults a child the offence remains assault for both the teacher and child. The only difference is that the child is criminally processed and dealt with differently from adults. So if assault and the grammar of violence are so prevalent in our very society with armed criminals engaging in sorts and manners of crimes in a poverty stricken environment where kids don’t have decent facilities geared at a kid’s welfare, you bound to have violence

[tec0]

I think we are going to see a lot more violence/abuse before action will be taken I am sorry to say.

[adrianh]

What school kids need is this:

a good snot klap

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Unfortunately the issue of human rights sometimes loses focus.
Yes, children have the right to education, yes kicking them out of school would be counter productive, but we can't have people doing what they want.
It's a tricky balancing act, but quality education is the absolute key.

[Dave S]

= ...but quality education is the absolute key.

...and parents that actually do give a damn...

[Citizen X]

There’s yet another way to see this: The criminal whomsoever he or she may be has other roles to play in society such as father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter etc. As such the criminals children will also see what their parents are engaging in and tragically in many cases they pick up certain qualities.

If you move away from the ‘strikers,’ scenario, then we also have communities riddled with drug abuse and all the ills that may come of it.
The kids in these neighbourhoods such as the Cape Flats pick up on this ethos of gangsterism, drug dealing and use and the list goes on. They do have schools, a proportion of these parents(the drug lords and users) will take this behavior right into their very own classroom. This places the teacher and the rest of the students in a predicament.

The grammar of violence, possible drug use, possible domestic violence prevalence, possible heated custody battles and poverty will manifest in our schools. It just has to unless the root of these problems are properly addresses.
The Child Justice Act takes into consideration that every child offender comes from a community and has different circumstances. So though what that child done was wrong, it was assault, he will be dealt with under a different legislation.

To compound matters, you have some teachers who are pedophiles and abuse children. This element of an adult criminal can’t also be ignored

[adrianh]

The country lacks discipline. The lack of discipline filters down from the very top of government right through to the schools. Monkey see monkey do!

[KimH]

Agree with Adrianh on both points.

Lack of discipline leads to moral decay - ultimately people need rules, without them they are just lost.
There's way too much molly coddling and far too little consequence these days.

[adrianh]

Remember the kid that sets the young lady teacher's hair on fire in Cape Town. When I was at school you knew very well not to do anything like that because your a$$ would burn for a long time. We used to get anything from 1 to 6 canings on our a$$es for doing badly in tests let alone assaulting a teacher.

They need to bring back corporal punishment in schools and the police should also hand out good hidings in public.

I'm all for good hidings giving in public on a Saturday afternoon so that everybody gets to see that punishment is swift and harsh. No more time wasted in counts and full jails, just give them a good hiding and send them on their way!

[Citizen X]

Remember the kid that sets the young lady teacher's hair on fire in Cape Town. When I was at school you knew very well not to do anything like that because your a$$ would burn for a long time. We used to get anything from 1 to 6 canings on our a$$es for doing badly in tests let alone assaulting a teacher.

They need to bring back corporal punishment in schools and the police should also hand out good hidings in public.

I'm all for good hidings giving in public on a Saturday afternoon so that everybody gets to see that punishment is swift and harsh. No more time wasted in counts and full jails, just give them a good hiding and send them on their way!

Here’s the thing we’ve got laws in place and a criminal justice system that functions to a greater or lesser extent.

The offence is in question, regardless of where it took place and by whom it was inflicted upon, is common assault. So the child in question will attend a preliminary hearing where a diversion option can be recommended. The child will just be tried under different conditions from an adult. A teacher too, as the media shows can also be an assailant who assaults a child either physically or sexually.

We’ve seen Professors been fired for allegations of rape and sexual assault and sexual harassment.

There are laws in place. The issue of corporal punishment was already dealt with by the constitutional court in a case which involved a bunch of Christian Schools who brought an application stating that if they collectively consent to the corporal punishment of their very own children in a selected number of schools and the schools endorse the principle, corporal punishment should be allowed. The application failed dismally in the constitutional court. The CC is always guided by the constitution itself and in particular fundamental rights. The child’s right to safety and security, right to a safe environment, right to dignity and respect, right not to be subjected to inhumane or degrading punishment trumped the Christian organisation’s right to collectively consent to corporal punishment which is in actual fact assault.

I wouldn’t have a clue as to how the school itself as an organization with a principal and parents governing body could sanction the assault of their children and more specifically a bunch of other children who don’t share the same ethos.
This is a tricky one.

This child in the Glenvista high saga wherever he may be right now, he is regretting what he’s done and now just wants normality and stability to come to his teenage life. The courts recognize this. The pivotal issue is whether the child freely and voluntary before a prosecutor acknowledges responsibility and the his parent’s consent to a diversion program such as vocation school and therapy , the court can then immediately dispense with the matter and have it diverted.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Im not sue he is regretting or is remorseful, and that is the key.

We need to move away from blaming and excuses, people need to be responsible.

Children are far more advanced, children reach adulthood earlier, the age of responsibiltiy should be lowered. And perhaps parents should b ehedl vicariously liable.
I respect the law and human rights, but there must be a balance. I would rather sacrifice ten people to save 100. Life is not fair.

[Citizen X]

If it comes to sanction for transgression what would be the appropriate sentence, notwithstanding that there is currently sentences for these crimes, one needs to go back to Ancient Rome, some 2500 ago; and we simultaneously consider that Ancient Roman Law is the architect of our common law, though we’ve had many changes and we continue to develop the common law, their forms of punishments included:

Beheading ,Strangling in prison , Throwing a criminal from that part of the prison called Robur and placing him in a worse prison, Throwing a criminal from the Tarpeian rock(it wasn’t always at this rock, sometimes they threw you from a cliff or from whatever height was necessary to kill you,Crucifixion (in crucem actio) , Burying a person alive, Throwing a criminal into the river( this one explains itself, the authorities simply throw the criminal in the river[Ancient Rome).

Last but not least, they had lashing on the back with a sturdy leather whip meant to inflict as much grievous bodily harm as an abled man’s hand could inflict. For assault 12 whips was in order.
So if you could resort to this ancient and ineffective means of punishment or do you see that both parties:teachers as a group and school children as a group have current and on-going challenges
You may carry out assault in self- defence provided that certain requirements are met.

My question:

Since reality tv is such a big thing in this world why not encourage a few people to consent to a whipping for scientific purposes i.e. you just want to see how it is for someone to really get whipped that way by an able bodied man with a lethal whip. Will say maybe 5 whips do for a school child? You may then get a teacher with a boxing, gymning buzz and he then without reason gives the child a few smacks and punches. Or even a full on body assault and pour’s his wrath against that child as if he were in a fighting cage. Will this be suitable.

I think the better approach is that we do recognise that there are separate laws for criminal matters pertaining to children, that corporal punishment is unconstitutional and common assault is also a criminal offence punishable by the State. This one crime applies equally to all, no one may assault another[yes, in our society this takes place hourly], a teacher may not assault a student and a student should not assault a teacher..and the same applies to all other citizens. The obvious exceptions are taken as a given such as self-defence.

[Justloadit]

SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?

Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.

[Citizen X]

SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?

Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.

I’ll answer it in a round a bout manner i.e. answer your question last:-

At present corporal punishment is unlawfully and actually declared unconstitutional in a case championed by a group of Christian schools.

Suppose we say that a certain punishment for your kid should be allowed will you allow this?
Teacher(Background: Sports, fitness, with a little drinking problem[one in a millon!) He decided that his standard punishment if you get an answer wrong is that he slaps you once with all his might; for an offense of being rowdy in class he may slap you a few times, if necessary punch you about 3 times and if need be also kick you.

Would you allow this teacher the custody of teaching and disciplining your child?

Man remain a product of his very own society from which he comes. This applies equally to teachers and school children, they live in a crime riddled country where crime is of a serious and forceable nature. They have a host of socio economic issue: where to begin… We also in the continuing process of living to genuinely live in a multi-racial society.

For me it’s even simpler: If daddy is a criminal involves in atm bombings there must be some small chance that this affects the behavior of that individual school child. Many school kids get to see mummy and daddy violently striking on television, many get to see a kangaroo court with mob justice. The general problem in most South Africa provinces is alcohol and drug abuse, poverty, crime and poor service delivery.

What would I see as a fit punishment for this kid?
1. The school must have its own disciplinary code which they reportedly implemented by either threatening to expel this kid or in actual fact doing so, both would be appropriate from the school’s perspective;

2. The law: He committed assault but is a minor to whom the State owes a great responsibility. The court has to process his case in terms of the Child Justice Act so based on the fact that it’s a schedule one offence(not murder, armed robbery or rape), he can get a fine or compulsory attendance to vocational school. The idea is to prevent child offenders to the harsh exposure of the criminal justice system as we now know it.
What happens afterwards? This is my real question. The child is young, he made a mistake, he probably regrets it, he doesn’t like been on the news, he’s been expelled and arguably the court does sentence him to something, where does he go from there? This is what the Child Justice Act needs to do in practice. There needs to be a reintergration of the child offender into his family and community, he/she needs to accept responsibility and depending on what the court orders which can include a written apology as well.
This child still has a long live ahead of him if he plays his cards right notwithstanding what he did. He can’t undo his offence. Why should this be the end of his life?

[tec0]

Back in the day sickly kids like myself normally had a hard time. But I decided I will not be a punishing bag. So I got in trouble for hitting back. Later on a gang took me on 3 against 1 and I won... Shortly after that I got into my first knife fight then faced my first attacker armed with a gun. {note I was always unarmed}

Funny thing is I never faced just one person always a gang always armed. This was back in my day “with discipline still fully active”. So don’t give me “kids of today have no discipline crap”.

Schools are breading grounds for bullies and bad people. This is fact! So yes government is responsible for that child’s death. They didn’t take enough action to protect children and the truth is “in the old days” the same story applies.

So it is not “just the government from today!” The government of the old days was just as crappy to protect the children.

The first thing I learned was it doesn’t matter if the dude is big and muscular. His bones are bones organs are organs. I don’t care if they are “trained to resist pain” all of them scream eventually... I had to learn how to take on 3 attackers at a time this back in the day before video games. the worst attack I faced was 13 against my brother and myself.

So you can bring your snot klap and see how that works. Because it doesn't it never AS IN NEVER worked not then not now. What you need is safe schools.

Security is the answer here.