Violence in our schools

[Citizen X]

Has a ‘Hiding,’ worked?

Just some original thought here:

Though I don’t have empirical evidence from the little that I can deduced, based on the fact that from 1918 and WW1 and 1939 with its WW2 to today on the 28^th October 2013, we do have a 95 years of world history. We do have in these 95 years about 3 generations of ‘parents,’ given lifespan.

1. So, with 95 years of actual world history and in particular South African history has a ‘hiding,’ since 1918 to the 28 October 2013 worked?;
2. If a ‘hiding,’ has in actual fact worked efficiently and effectively in addressing ill- discipline in children, then answer me this simple original question: How on earth did the parents of these past three generations discipline their children?
3.The product of these past three generations have produced children that in effect have caused two world wars, failed to address a famine stricken world and have on-going war, civil war, social strife, economic strife and the current world as we know and love it;
4. 95 years of world criminal history. Oh you got to love the ‘criminal!’ One can rightfully ask, how did the parents of all the world criminals from 1918 to date discipline their children? They must have done something. It clearly didn’t work!
5. 95 years of actual religious history (in particular Christianity). This past three generations ‘hiding,’ produced no better results as is evident by the conduct of many of its own members over this past 95 years. Surely they got a good ‘hiding!’
6. 95 years of ‘punks,’ and their parents. Here I can only wonder how discipline was carried out. The behavior draws attention.
It comes down to this simple inalienable right. According to our Constitution a human being regardless of his/her age, even a baby has certain human rights that not even a parent can take away from him or her.

That child has met the simple requirement of just being a ‘human being.’

[HR Solutions]

Imagine the corporal that could not dish out discipline ...... No-wonder the army is as it is today.

[Justloadit]

It's also interesting that there has been more progress in the last 95 years than there has been in the last 3000 years.
Not to mention the schools which have the most discipline are the schools that are performing the best academically, a very good example is Jeppe Boy's high.

Whilst you are using the last 95 years as an example, the introduction of the constitutional rights has only been implemented in the last 20 years, and we are already seeing the chaos, children are allowed to pass on marks below 40%.

Discipline and learning are reinforced by consequences of actions, this is part of growing up. Reasoning only plays a part if the child has the ability to have learn't the original lesson. So what ensures the child has learn't the lesson in the first place?

[adrianh]

Has a ‘Hiding,’ worked?

Just some original thought here:

Though I don’t have empirical evidence from the little that I can deduced, based on the fact that from 1918 and WW1 and 1939 with its WW2 to today on the 28^th October 2013, we do have a 95 years of world history. We do have in these 95 years about 3 generations of ‘parents,’ given lifespan.

1. So, with 95 years of actual world history and in particular South African history has a ‘hiding,’ since 1918 to the 28 October 2013 worked?;
2. If a ‘hiding,’ has in actual fact worked efficiently and effectively in addressing ill- discipline in children, then answer me this simple original question: How on earth did the parents of these past three generations discipline their children?
3.The product of these past three generations have produced children that in effect have caused two world wars, failed to address a famine stricken world and have on-going war, civil war, social strife, economic strife and the current world as we know and love it;
4. 95 years of world criminal history. Oh you got to love the ‘criminal!’ One can rightfully ask, how did the parents of all the world criminals from 1918 to date discipline their children? They must have done something. It clearly didn’t work!
5. 95 years of actual religious history (in particular Christianity). This past three generations ‘hiding,’ produced no better results as is evident by the conduct of many of its own members over this past 95 years. Surely they got a good ‘hiding!’
6. 95 years of ‘punks,’ and their parents. Here I can only wonder how discipline was carried out. The behavior draws attention.
It comes down to this simple inalienable right. According to our Constitution a human being regardless of his/her age, even a baby has certain human rights that not even a parent can take away from him or her.

That child has met the simple requirement of just being a ‘human being.’

@Vanash, Iv'e asked you this before, as an intelligent person who obviously is logical and understands the law, how can you create such a ridiculous argument by clutching straws in one hand and rocks in the other and then forcing them together. I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.

[Citizen X]

@Vanash, Iv'e asked you this before, as an intelligent person who obviously is logical and understands the law, how can you create such a ridiculous argument by clutching straws in one hand and rocks in the other and then forcing them together. I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.

The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?

[Justloadit]

What I find even more interesting is that laws are set up to supposedly protect people. Your argument is that we as educated individuals have the capacity to know what is right and what is wrong, then why are laws necessary and why is there a punishment for contravening the law. Bringing a child up is a similar action, it is about educating, and that there is a consequence for not listening.

Let's say that a child wants to place a hand on a stove hot plate, you can warn them that they are going to burn themselves, and you push their hand away, the child insists on attempting to do this, you again explain and push the hand away. The child is not going to listen to reason, simply because it does not know that the stove plate will burn the skin on their hand. The one way is to smack the child, which now instills discipline that you are attempting to teach the child through your knowledge and experience. The other way is to let the child put their hand on the plate, and burn their skin, and now you have to take them to a hospital and go through all the aggravation of tending the wound until it is healed, and have a stigma that you can not look after your child, you are a bad parent.

Understanding a child and teaching a child are two worlds apart. A child just does not have the knowledge and background that you have, so how is a child going to understand the consequences of an action. Now as an adult you have told the child that there is a consequence if you do not head your parents word, would that not be part of teaching your child.

[Citizen X]

What I find even more interesting is that laws are set up to supposedly protect people. Your argument is that we as educated individuals have the capacity to know what is right and what is wrong, then why are laws necessary and why is there a punishment for contravening the law. Bringing a child up is a similar action, it is about educating, and that there is a consequence for not listening.

Let's say that a child wants to place a hand on a stove hot plate, you can warn them that they are going to burn themselves, and you push their hand away, the child insists on attempting to do this, you again explain and push the hand away. The child is not going to listen to reason, simply because it does not know that the stove plate will burn the skin on their hand. The one way is to smack the child, which now instills discipline that you are attempting to teach the child through your knowledge and experience. The other way is to let the child put their hand on the plate, and burn their skin, and now you have to take them to a hospital and go through all the aggravation of tending the wound until it is healed, and have a stigma that you can not look after your child, you are a bad parent.

Understanding a child and teaching a child are two worlds apart. A child just does not have the knowledge and background that you have, so how is a child going to understand the consequences of an action. Now as an adult you have told the child that there is a consequence if you do not head your parents word, would that not be part of teaching your child.

Suppose we have a juvenile delinquent. He likes to steal and rob people. So his dad beats him up with a baseball bat to discipline him. The child loses a few teeth but tells his dad, regardless of whether you beat me with a bat or not I’m still going to rob and steal.
What constitutes a ‘hiding?’ If your child is disobedient, will tying him to a tree for a week really address the problem?
Many parents have taken the concept of hiding way too far and in the process killed their children including babies.
My question still stands: If ‘hiding,’ was so effective over the past 95 years, then why is our current world in such a dismal state of affairs?
You can’t do the same thing and get different results..

[HR Solutions]

Suppose we have a juvenile delinquent. He likes to steal and rob people. So his dad beats him up with a baseball bat to discipline him. The child loses a few teeth but tells his dad, regardless of whether you beat me with a bat or not I’m still going to rob and steal.
What constitutes a ‘hiding?’ If your child is disobedient, will tying him to a tree for a week really address the problem?
Many parents have taken the concept of hiding way too far and in the process killed their children including babies.
My question still stands: If ‘hiding,’ was so effective over the past 95 years, then why is our current world in such a dismal state of affairs?
You can’t do the same thing and get different results..

Theres a BIG difference disciplining a child with a baseball bat vs a Klap !!!
Cant you see that ???

[Dave S]

The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?

Maybe there just weren't enough "hidings"

But seriously, I grew up in a staunch British Christian family and despite hidings and strong discipline, I ran off the tracks. For me to blame my parent for that would be ridiculous, it was a choice I made, not my parent. The thing is I knew it was wrong, because of the discipline instilled in me by my parents, and having raised a family myself, I am very grateful for the insight my parent has given me.

However in today's fast, stressed environment, it would be just too easy to "lose it" when disciplining a child with a hiding, and one could very easily take-out a frustration on an undeserving child, after all, there is a fine line between discipline and abuse, but abuse can also take a mental approach without becoming physical, it is for a parent to always act in the interest of the child, therefore, the parent must have their own discipline and knowledge of what can harm or help a child. But blaming the parent for a child's downfall is not always correct, sometimes even the most disciplined children will go awry by their own choice or influence from outside the family.

Why our world is in such a dismal state, greed and power, not necessarily put there by parents, but rather by an ever-increasing population that is using resources at a phenomenal rate, and Joe Greed and Mr. Power want the control, basic human instinct, I guess.

[Citizen X]

[QUOTE=adrianh;99672I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.[/QUOTE]

The scientific twist works both ways!
What empirical evidence can you offer me that a ‘hiding,’ was an effective and efficient means of dealing with the ill-discipline of children worldwide from 1918 to date

[Citizen X]

Maybe there just weren't enough "hidings"

But seriously, I grew up in a staunch British Christian family and despite hidings and strong discipline, I ran off the tracks. For me to blame my parent for that would be ridiculous, it was a choice I made, not my parent. The thing is I knew it was wrong, because of the discipline instilled in me by my parents, and having raised a family myself, I am very grateful for the insight my parent has given me.

However in today's fast, stressed environment, it would be just too easy to "lose it" when disciplining a child with a hiding, and one could very easily take-out a frustration on an undeserving child, after all, there is a fine line between discipline and abuse, but abuse can also take a mental approach without becoming physical, it is for a parent to always act in the interest of the child, therefore, the parent must have their own discipline and knowledge of what can harm or help a child. But blaming the parent for a child's downfall is not always correct, sometimes even the most disciplined children will go awry by their own choice or influence from outside the family.

.

Look at this from another way: With the Catholic sex abuse cases, from the early 70’s to present[let’s not look at prior to 1970] you had a significant amount of offenders from various countries, if true discipline served its intended purpose then why on earth did they behave in such a vile manner?
What is then your purpose for discipline alternatively ‘hiding?” If the intended purpose is not achieved across global lines, why would anyone assume that this technique can still work?

Why our world is in such a dismal state, greed and power, not necessarily put there by parents, but rather by an ever-increasing population that is using resources at a phenomenal rate, and Joe Greed and Mr. Power want the control, basic human instinct, I guess

Look at this from another way: With the Catholic sex abuse cases, from the early 70’s to present[let’s not look at prior to 1970] you had a significant amount of offenders from various countries, if true discipline served its intended purpose then why on earth did they behave in such a vile manner?
What is then your purpose for discipline alternatively ‘hiding?” If the intended purpose is not achieved across global lines, why would anyone assume that this technique can still work?
Who makes up this population? Surely this population is a microcosm, a litmus test if you will. Has a ‘hiding,’ accomplished it’s predetermined task?

[HR Solutions]

LOL ...........

[tec0]

Discipline starts by understanding the mind then design a solution around that thought pattern. After that you introduce simple manipulations to show the individual who they are and their image that they project.

Slowly you bring across an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. It works I know it works because I did it! You can teach a young mind if you take the time. Love and attention and understanding. It works I know for a fact it does.

[HR Solutions]

introduce simple manipulations to show the individual who they are

I Totally disagree with you. Children grow up the way they are brought up. My children grew up according to family morals and good family ethics. We are a good family. I would never "manipulate" my children to be something other than what they are. The had to grow and fit in with the family. If you teach your children the right things in life from a young age they will become that as they grow up. I never had to lie to them - always the truth and honesty - no manipulation. I will never "show" my children who "they" are !! They will create their own personalities as they grow older with guidance. Simple right and wrong and consequences.

[adrianh]

HR - It doesn't always work that way. My parents worked hard and did their best for us kids. My elder brother and sister did extremely well and towed the line. I was the total opposite, I simply could care, I would do whatever I wanted irrespective of what my parents said or demanded. My parents never smacked us and maybe they could have smacked all the nonsense out of me.

tec0 - interesting theory but it is absolute rubbish - I bet you don't have kids, staff or spent in time in the army. Discipline doesn't work that way. Personal discipline is the ability to do whatever is needed whether you like it or not, when you have discipline phrases such as "want to" "like to" "don't like to" don't want to" simply don't exist, you simply do what you have to do. If you think that you are going to get anywhere with a class of 16 year old boys in school by your method you are sadly mistaken, they will eat you alive you think you are going to give each one love and attention and understanding...you want to teach and they need to learn...with clearly defined parameters of discipline.