Violence in our schools

[tec0]

Well there are soon to be new laws in the "first world" where you can have your child killed for being sickly... I mean why give them any chance at life right? Suppose that the "bully mentality" is a disorder passed down from father to child. they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I have no feeling in my left hand because a lady thought it was ok to burn a child's hand on a oven plate as punishment... What do you think? Think burning a child's hand on a hot oven plate is punishment enough?

Nah hurting someone especially a child is a sickness not a solution.

[tec0]

[HR Solutions]

I don't watch these video's, they are boring.
And anyway euthanasia and violence in schools have nothing to do with each other.

[tec0]

I don't watch these video's, they are boring.
And anyway euthanasia and violence in schools have nothing to do with each other.

Well that is your opinion and lets not forget that you yourself test people for dyslexia thus moderating who does and who doesn't get work or rather that was your intention on another thread. Thus I question your motive in discrediting any content overall. That said there is a relation between these two things. Right now a test are being developed to spot psychotic behaviour. Now combine this test with pre-birth DNA testing and you can test for psychotic behaviour before the child is born. Now the Mother needs to decide does she want a psychotic child or not?

So yes there is a strong connection between the above and violence in our schools. See this can act as a precursor to make this type of testing a law to avoid violence in general.

See you yourself demanded in other thread that people must accept what they get and must not complain for work is a privilege not a right. So soon your wish may well come true as this type of testing will create the perfect “yes man” a human that does not question does not react only acts and moves as demanded. In short you will have your slaves...

See there is always a link... it is your choice to see it or not.

[HR Solutions]

Sorry you are not making sense. But don't worry about it ....

[tec0]

Sorry you are not making sense. But don't worry about it ....

I am sorry if this is above your reasoning.

But the countries funding this type of research have a prison population of over 1.5 million people. Thus they need to find the cause and eradicate it because they cannot afford another 1.5 million prisoners. Being a business man I am sure you can appreciate the taxation and cost factor of such a large prison population.

Herein is the key to understanding the links. First if you can identify violent people “before birth” you can force the mother to abort or accept liability. Thus violence in schools will be a thing of the past. But at what cost? Anger is one of the mechanisms that keep us competitive, how will it be if humans no longer have this drive? I am sure that with your military background you can understand why anger and aggression is needed on the battlefield. If you never had these experiences then I would imagine it would be difficult to comprehend.

See this law will allow the above mentioned testing to be condoned and will allow the termination of a particular genetic pool. It is also a known fact that third world countries have a tendency to adopt the laws of first world countries. But again being a tourist of these first would countries I am sure that you can identify that our country’s law system share similarities with the first world.

After all you had a fist hand experience.

But I understand if it doesn’t make sense to you.

Have a good day sir.

[HR Solutions]

I am sorry if this is above your reasoning

No problem

[Citizen X]

Nothing wrong with giving kids a good klap or hiding now and then.

The Constitutional Court simply doesn’t agree with you!

Corporal punishment is a non-legal issue as it has already been decided upon.
Even before it was decided upon there was already post 1994 legislation in place prohibiting corporal punishment.

The matter that went to the Constitutional Court was a test of whether that particular law is Constitutional and valid. The CC found it completely valid.

Common assault by a student on a teacher and by a teacher on a student is prohibited by law. It’s a criminal offence for either the school child or the teacher to commit common assault

So though you say there's nothing wrong with assault, jurisprudence is against you on all counts..

[HR Solutions]

I didn't say anything about whether it is legal or not via any constitutional court. I merely said - nothing wrong with a Klap now and again - at home. Neither did I mention corporal punishment at school ! ( which I know is illegal, although I feel worked very well) .

[pmbguy]

I don’t think anybody here in ignorant of the law regarding corporal punishment. I think the argument here is related to whether corporal punishment is indeed socially beneficial. It is clear that discipline in our schools has got much worse since corporal punishment has been banned. Whether this is evidence enough for us to believe it should be reinstated is unclear. A part of me does not like any form of violence.

Perhaps we could say that yes corporal punishment as an act is immoral, given that it is an act of violence (not in self defence), but that the means justify the ends given that it does lead to a more disciplined society. A disciplined society leads to a less violent society.

[Citizen X]

I don’t think anybody here in ignorant of the law regarding corporal punishment. I think the argument here is related to whether corporal punishment is indeed socially beneficial. It is clear that discipline in our schools has got much worse since corporal punishment has been banned. Whether this is evidence enough for us to believe it should be reinstated is unclear. A part of me does not like any form of violence.

Perhaps we could say that yes corporal punishment as an act is immoral, given that it is an act of violence (not in self defence), but that the means justify the ends given that it does lead to a more disciplined society. A disciplined society leads to a less violent society.

My point here is that you’ll find your position or argument or stance somewhere in this judgment regardless of whether you arguing on the basis of morality or natural law or even law. Your argument is there and there is a written response from the Constitutional Court judges.

If it just comes down to the concept of a parent assaulting their child to punish thenm in the home, well, we have legislation in the pipelines that disigned to prohibit that.

For the sake of argument…

Let’s allow actual Consititutional Court Judges to answer you, which is done through case-law. It’s almost as if they want to reason with you as an individual notwithstanding the fact that they the highest court in the land.
Would your current argument still have any weight in response to what the CC has already thoroughly dissected with medical precision in the following case?
In Christian Education South Africa v Minister of Education (CCT4/00) [2000] ZACC 11; 2000 (4) SA 757; 2000 (10) BCLR 1051 (18 August 2000) at
Para 43, 45, 46 Judge Sachs has the following to say:


“Courts throughout the world have shown special solicitude for protecting children from what they have regarded as the potentially injurious consequences of their parents’ religious practices. It is now widely accepted that in every matter concerning the child, the child’s best interests must be of paramount importance. This Court has recently reaffirmed the significance of this right which every child has.”

“The second and more persuasive argument is to the effect that the state has an interest in protecting pupils from degradation and indignity. The respondent contended that the trend in Europe and neighbouring African countries was firmly in the direction of abolition of corporal punishment, and that the core value of human dignity in our Bill of Rights did not countenance the use of physical force to achieve scholarly correction. Accordingly, respondent was under an obligation to prohibit such punishment, and to do so without exception and for the benefit of all children. The appellant replied that for believers, including the children involved, the indignity and degradation lay not in the punishment, but in the defiance of the scriptures represented by leaving the misdeeds unpunished.”


“The issue of whether corporal punishment in schools is in itself degrading was touched upon but not decided by this Court in S v Williams and Others.Holding that judicially ordered corporal punishment of juveniles was in conflict with the Bill of Rights, Langa J stated that “the issue of corporal punishment [in] schools [was] by no means free of controversy” and that “the practice [had] inevitably come in for strong criticism”. In his view, the “culture of authority which legitimate[d] the use of violence [was] inconsistent with the values for which the Constitution stands”.Speaking generally, he stated that:

“The deliberate infliction of pain with a cane on a tender part of the body as well as the institutionalised nature of the procedure involved an element of cruelty in the system that sanction[ed] it. The activity is planned beforehand, it is deliberate. Whether the person administering the strokes has a cruel streak or not is beside the point. It could hardly be claimed, in a physical sense at least, that the act pains him more than his victim. The act is impersonal, executed by a stranger, in alien surroundings. The juvenile is, indeed, treated as an object and not as a human being.”[1]

---

[1]http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/2000/11.html. Accessed 27 October 2013

[Justloadit]

What we are forgetting here is that we are only now beginning to experiencing the lack of discipline in our society, this lack of total disrespect for you fellow human. I experience this on a daily basis on the roads and in the streets. Total disrespect to your fellow human being, WTF are you, I am more important than you, I have always been more important than every one else. Look at our learners, not only in South Africa, but in the UK and USA, they reach college and still can not comprehend what they read, why because no one can make me do anything, it is against the law.

We are beginning to experience the this "lack of responsibility for your actions", "I do because I know there are no consequences, as I am protected by the law" which becomes a habit from a child into adulthood.

We are still to reap the fruits of our actions today.

Talking is not going to instill discipline, and I also do not accept systematic thrashing to instill discipline, but sometimes the only way to get through is a good smack to bring you back into reality.

I have been watching this subject closely for a good number of years, and what the conclusion that I have come to, and this is my opinion, is that children who had no discipline are ill equipped to handle today's problems, as they never had to learn, and tend to be misfits in society. The kids that have grown up with a strong discipline tend to be far more successful in adulthood.

If you follow most successful people, you will note that discipline played an important role in their early lives.
I feel that the broad brush stroke is being applied here for the few that are being abused.
Like all systems, the majority pays the price for the solitary few who are abusive. This 'make it a law' whilst sounding as the right action, is in itself contrary to what it is trying to achieve.

[pmbguy]

Thanks Vanash I am aware of what the law says on the matter and I certainly do not have the authority or legal knowledge to challenge what constitutional judges lay down as law, but I will still humbly voice my concerns and opinions.

As a child I was extremely naughty and rebellious. My parents had a very hard time keeping me in line. Because of my behaviour I was disciplined often with the cane by my teachers and my parents. This discipline did eventually curb my behaviour and today I am very thankful for it. If I did not receive such strong discipline back then I would probably be in jail or dead today. People who grow up without strong discipline grow up with a false sense of self importance and are the “know it all’s” we so often come across. People without discipline get eaten alive out in the real world because they never learned to look at their own faults and take responsibility for their actions. They don’t learn to change bad behaviour they seek instead to blame others and hide behind their individual rights. In my humble opinion the law has tunnelvisioned itself too much on individual rights to the detriment of society as a whole.

[HR Solutions]

Vanash , as pmb says most of us are aware of the law, therefore you do not need to copy paste long drawn out scripts, which are still open for "argument"

[adrianh]

My metalwork teacher used to smack the crap out of us - we all got distinctions in metalwork... I wish my maths teacher also beat us all the time...

The law has no value because nobody respects it...
1. Why should the great unwashed respect the law if the powers that be don't?
2. Why would people respect the law if it either not enforced or enforced arbitrarily depending on who you are and how much money you have?
3. Many people are better off in jail so what do they care.

In this country the law isn't simply an ass, it is a total joke enforced by a bunch of clowns.

I say that 3rd world deeds must be punished by 3rd world methods, a good couple of smacks is generally all that it takes!