Violence in our schools

[adrianh]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

[tec0]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

It is not about that... No school could control me, no person with rank scared me. I respected my dad because he is a respectable person. I respected my mom because she is a respectable person. Both gave me the gift of Honour and integrity.

I defended people then I still do today. Do you honestly think a snot klap will do anything? A teacher tried that with me... guess what? My brother took him down because we don’t tolerate it. I was still a bit young then.

Do you know why I got the snot klap? Because they accused me of theft and I didn’t accept the blame because I was innocent.

Here are the facts... If bullies see security and see that they take action and see that they end up expelled or the police gets involved then they will back down because they have too. This is not about freedoms... I don’t know where you get the stuff.

This is about a failed system.

[Citizen X]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

Not to make light of what is otherwise a harrowing unfolding of violence in schools around the globe as well as in our country but suppose you had a one in a million teacher who feels needs to carry a knife on his person for his personal protection.
This is necessary for going to and from work the school and protecting himself ensuring class. A naughty kid, let’s call him that, is rowdy and disruptive as his daddy is the neighbourhood drug lord.

An argument takes place between our teacher here and our school kid, so the teacher sees it fit to inflict corporal punishment with his knife. He does ensure that he stabs only once, once he’s stabbed you and you’ve settled down in class and the class can now continue, he will no longer stab you!!

[adrianh]

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

[Citizen X]

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

@Adrian, ironically enough you demonstrating the same assertiveness that Christian Education South, as representatives of a group of Christian schools, who endorsed and wanted corporal punishment took the matter all the way to the Constitutional Court v Minister of education.

The bone of contention is that they were unhappy with section 10(1) of the Schools Act 84 of 1996 which is a peremptory provision which states: “No person may administer corporal punishment at a school to a
Learner.” Their main argument was that a basic tenet of Christianity is that parents and all in parental authority should punish their children.

The Constitutional court completely rejected their argument. The applicant’s Christian Education South Africa depended on natural law to argue their case. The Constitutional Court looked at the legislation in place which is the Schools Act 84 of 1996 and found it to be completely constitutional. So this is where we at historically and legally in South Africa. Any teacher who assaults a school child will be criminally prosecuted. The same applies to a school child, if he/she commits common assault they will be charged but tried under the Child Justice Act.

So again, the kid committed common assault. This was wrong in the sense that it’s unlawful but also disrespectful. This doesn’t mean that he should receive a life sentence or subjection to a Roman style 12 lashes whipping. Imagine if in this whipping they said that they’d offer you an offer to provide 4 of the 12 lashes, would you give the school child an effective whipping? The whip must slice the flesh

[one in a million:the perfect teacher: Specs: BA in education, honours in education and masters in education. He’s a great maths teacher, won many accolades but he’s also a paedophile. So, in his mind he doesn’t want to physically punish your child, he feels that should your child go out of hand, he’ll simply sexually molest or assault them. One looks that the media coverage of such incidents and you really ask yourself :what’s happening?? Would you allow the possibility and circumstantial environment to allow this?

[tec0]

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

And there in is the problem. The eggplant mentality is "give people a snot klap" It doesn't treat the problem at all. No what you need is system at the school. If a student gets out of line remove that student via security give that student a criminal record and that student will never set foot in a school again. Yes it is harsh because you are taking away his future but you are giving a future to the other 39 students in the same class. Thus the the needs of the many comes first.

Real discipline starts with real responsibility

[pmbguy]

... Later on a gang took me on 3 against 1 and I won... Shortly after that I got into my first knife fight then faced my first attacker armed with a gun. {note I was always unarmed}

Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?

[pmbguy]

Just encase you take my post the wrong way I should elaborate my question for the sake of clarity. Chuck Norris is usually unarmed that’s why I mentioned him in reverence to you. You did say you faced an attacker with a gun. So did you comply with the demands of the armed attacker or did you fight him off. If you did fight him off how did you do it?

[adrianh]

Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?

He pulled some Kung Fu on that them there dudes a$$

[tec0]

Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?

I only remember seeing red. I can't recall anything... Normally when I get into a fight I lose control... When I lose control I see red... Just red...

[adrianh]

So, when you see red you become bulletproof, cool.

[Citizen X]

Violence in our schools is a deadly serious matter. My concluding opinion is that we will only successfully redress this problem by changing the fabric of our society from a moral and ethical perspective.
This problem can’t be successfully addressed by only the government, schools and school governing bodies. It will require an integrated approach i.e. parents, teachers, school governing bodies, religious organizations etc. Eradicating poverty and crime will contribute to less violence in our schools
I can’t see how any South African is really surprised by the Glenvista High incident simply because we live in a very violent society.
I think that this child offender is still very young and still has a future ahead of him in spite of what he has done.

[Citizen X]

Not to make light of a situation that is serious but sometimes a different perspective is useful, besides the protagonists of this thread have taken the thread through different directions, I have a direction of my own!

I’m willing to bet that you will find a current criminal who not only holds that prestigious title but he is current incarcerated and still serving out his sentence. The crimes may differ murder, armed robbery, atm boimbing, theft, assault in its various forms, house breaking with intent to rob to name a few.
It’s not beyond reasonable speculation that at least some of them may be able to truthfully testify that despite what they’ve done and admittedly they’ve been breaking the law since childhood and also considering what other members of their community may say about them such as their family, friends, church, soccer club, previous schools. This criminal may say the following:

“Yes, I’ve done a lot but I never assaulted my teacher, the thought hadn’t occurred to me and I had a great respect for my teacher. In fact my teacher always said that I was well behaved! Considering where I am, in this hell of prison, I say that you give this kid a chance. He did assault his teacher, as mentioned I would have never dared, but he’s young and naïve, he didn’t break in your house like I did, he didn’t rob you in a violent manner as the court record would show I did and he also didn’t murder you[I still maintain my innocence, I never murdered those people in the house I robbed I only wanted to rob them which I did].

Also, that train accident I caused, I want to state and confirm for the record that my intention was only sabotage, I wanted to blow the rail tracks so that the train derailed and the company suffers. I did realize that some people would be injured and killed but I must clarify I had nothing against them. I was just a disgruntled employee. I only wanted the train to come off the tracks to punish the company.

This kid done this some time back, he’s already withdrawn from his schooling community where he could have learnt something, he’s now out in the cold. Help him to a point where his life is turned around for the better. I’ve learnt a thing or two about time, the past 15 years here hasn’t been nice. I still have 5 to go before parole, his next 15 years are still formative and challenging.”

[pmbguy]

I sometimes travel out to the rural areas around PMB to service black schools. I find that the more rural the schools are the more disciplined the children are. One headmaster impressed me greatly with his style of discipline. The kids are well behaved, neat and relatively quiet when going about their business. The headmaster of this school carries around with him at all times a willow stick that he tucks into his belt. After I serviced their machines I sat down with him in his office for some tea. I complimented him on how disciplined the kids are and I enquired about the stick he carries around with him. He explained that he uses the stick very seldom, but the mere fact that the kids know they will get a wack if they step out of line is enough to discourage bad behaviour. I asked whether he was not afraid of getting into trouble with the department, but he explained that the parents are on his side. He said that without discipline the kids simply won’t receive the education they deserve. So for the sake of the children he is willing to break the law by giving the odd hiding. Because of the subsequent good discipline the teachers are motivated and they have a close to 100% pass rate.

Other schools I visit stand in stark contrast to the school above. The kids are ill disciplined the teachers are not motivated and their pass rate is pathetic.

This makes me wonder whether banning corporal punishment was really in the best interest of the children.

[HR Solutions]

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

I fully agree with you Adrian. It worked in our day. If you caused trouble at school you were given a hiding and then when you went home and told your folks they would give you another hiding. It worked in the army. You did not cause trouble with a corporal because he would very quickly sort you out. Discipline starts in the home. If you are ill disciplined you will more than likely find that your parents were non existent. Nothing wrong with giving kids a good klap or hiding now and then.