Metals Industry strike - my take

[Justloadit]

Actually no...

I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually. So yes I don’t really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee.

The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.

That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable.

You don’t know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it.

When you do conduct the disciplinary hearing make SURE you have ALL the FACTS and all are PROVEN as FACT. My advice is spend the money get the facts as the law provides. A good lawyer that specialise in labour relations is worth GOLD so do the leg work find a good one and protect your company legally from bad employees.

This is all good and well for large companies, but SME's just do not have a budget and time to follow the procedures to the T. The problem is not the large companies, but the smaller ones with 5 to 20 employees, who can not afford an HR department, and to run to a lawyer every second day, is just not a viable option, firstly based on time and financial cost.

I will cite an example with me some years back, I was taken to the CCMA for supposedly unfair dismissal for an employee who absconded for over a year due to health reasons, it would have cost me more money to get a labour lawyer to handle the case on my behalf than to have accepted the so called payout for the alleged dismissal. Whilst I was in the right, I still suffered the financial loss. We can sit and debate what I did wrong or right or whatever, at the end of the day is cost me time and money for a situation that was not true. It also came at a time in which I was at the most financially vulnerable, which hurt the company even more, and when one is in survival mode, this can make or break you. Fortunately I survived.

[adrianh]

tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking.

Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.

So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?

tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

[Hertzel]

Actually no...

I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually. So yes I don’t really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee.

The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.

That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable.

You don’t know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it.

When you do conduct the disciplinary hearing make SURE you have ALL the FACTS and all are PROVEN as FACT. My advice is spend the money get the facts as the law provides. A good lawyer that specialise in labour relations is worth GOLD so do the leg work find a good one and protect your company legally from bad employees.

I understand your point and agree that getting rid of a bad employee is very much possible. However not all under performers are “bad” and in many cases can be turned with the proper motivation. It is hard to ignore potential and even harder to just get rid of that potential without a chance to develop. But how can you motivate and reward good and work on unlocking or developing potential when you are force to go by “what’s for 1 is for all”?


Say the original intention of a company was 5 to 6% increase for everyone meeting goals and 8% for the performers. Now the companies have to increase everyone by say a 10 % and have to give a R500 allowance each month to all employees. How much room is there now to reward performers, or to motivate and develop under performers? Also remember 10% will be the standard every year now. This means companies have to re budget, alter goals, alter projections etc... Delay or cancel possible expansions, developments etc… It will be years before we see any job creations within these industries. Some companies are flexible; some not. Forcing a blanket is not a solution and does not help the employee or the employer.

[tec0]

This is all good and well for large companies, but SME's just do not have a budget and time to follow the procedures to the T. The problem is not the large companies, but the smaller ones with 5 to 20 employees, who can not afford an HR department, and to run to a lawyer every second day, is just not a viable option, firstly based on time and financial cost.

I will cite an example with me some years back, I was taken to the CCMA for supposedly unfair dismissal for an employee who absconded for over a year due to health reasons, it would have cost me more money to get a labour lawyer to handle the case on my behalf than to have accepted the so called payout for the alleged dismissal. Whilst I was in the right, I still suffered the financial loss. We can sit and debate what I did wrong or right or whatever, at the end of the day is cost me time and money for a situation that was not true. It also came at a time in which I was at the most financially vulnerable, which hurt the company even more, and when one is in survival mode, this can make or break you. Fortunately I survived.

I understand your point and agree that getting rid of a bad employee is very much possible. However not all under performers are “bad” and in many cases can be turned with the proper motivation. It is hard to ignore potential and even harder to just get rid of that potential without a chance to develop. But how can you motivate and reward good and work on unlocking or developing potential when you are force to go by “what’s for 1 is for all”?


Say the original intention of a company was 5 to 6% increase for everyone meeting goals and 8% for the performers. Now the companies have to increase everyone by say a 10 % and have to give a R500 allowance each month to all employees. How much room is there now to reward performers, or to motivate and develop under performers? Also remember 10% will be the standard every year now. This means companies have to re budget, alter goals, alter projections etc... Delay or cancel possible expansions, developments etc… It will be years before we see any job creations within these industries. Some companies are flexible; some not. Forcing a blanket is not a solution and does not help the employee or the employer.

my 2cents...

Agreed but again there is a solution. Now I absolutely HATE with every atom inside of me HATE 1@b0ur br0kƎr$ but there contracts are worth something. If it is legal for a 1@b0ur br0kƎr$ to use short term contracts then surely the same laws apply to your business and you. But I would recommend you take the time spend the money with a good lawyer get the facts.

But I think short term contracts are the way to go it allows you to scale down, "dismiss -> [by not renewing] and employ whom you please. You can renew based on factors that you consider important and also it will aid you in surviving our unstable economy. BUT as you said before it is up to you to give your worthwhile employees a proper reason to stay.

[adrianh]

tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking.

Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.

So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?

tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

[tec0]

tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

Don’t hire a maid?

[adrianh]

Don’t hire a maid?

Exactly, I couldn't agree more.

You must never forget your resolution to the problem because it shows that deep down you realize that one shouldn't employ people on a permanent basis but rather outsource as and when you need them.

For one we are on the same page, well done.

[tec0]

Exactly, I couldn't agree more.

You must never forget your resolution to the problem because it shows that deep down you realize that one shouldn't employ people on a permanent basis but rather outsource as and when you need them.

For one we are on the same page, well done.

I have said it again over and over and I know you and your friend take it up the wrong way. BUT {You don’t even know what you don’t know} I am not saying this to pi$$ you off. I am saying use the internet and broaden your horizon because we are in for a major $hit-storm. Get wise! Get smart and keep your eye on the news.

Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.

Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so wisely and responsibly and decisively.

[adrianh]

I have said it again over and over and I know you and your friend take it up the wrong way. BUT {You don’t even know what you don’t know} I am not saying this to pi$$ you off. I am saying use the internet and broaden your horizon because we are in for a major $hit-storm. Get wise! Get smart and keep your eye on the news.

Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.

Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so wisely and responsibly and decisively.

Look, the scenario that I painted is exactly what occurs during a strike. I would like to know how you would resolve the situation in the short and long term. You whinging and whining serves no purpose whatsoever. Do something positive for once and tell us how you would resolve the problem that I pose. The reason that you don't want to try to tell us how you would solve it is probably that you don't actually know!

[adrianh]

You don’t even know what you don’t know

Here we go again...

The wheels on the garbage truck go round and round, round and round....

[tec0]

Look, the scenario that I painted is exactly what occurs during a strike. I would like to know how you would resolve the situation in the short and long term. You whinging and whining serves no purpose whatsoever. Do something positive for once and tell us how you would resolve the problem that I pose. The reason that you don't want to try to tell us how you would solve it is probably that you don't actually know!

you have no idea do you? Well I will leave it at that.

As for employer employee relations.

Firstly establish the types of output you will have “short term products” and “long term products” Then establish what type of employee you need to keep your long term products going and what type of employee you need for short term.

Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed” your short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract and will replace all of them every 2 month. Thus they don’t hang around long enough to cause damage or get angry. This will solve your maid from hell problem. BUT remember because you are replacing ALL employees training will be a constant and your output will vary. So there is an upside and a downside.

The 3 month contract or “long term employee” will be given more responsibility “or less” depending on your needs BUT you will have to handle all sensitive documentation, funds and day to day problems as you will have no real “team leader” as your long term employees are not permanent.
Upsides are you can hire and fire at your heart’s content by simply not renewing contracts. No disciplinary action needed it is for the most part clean.

BUT I would employ a labour lawyer to get your fine print ready and make sure you are within the letter of the law. This is not optional as a bad contract can cost you and your company. So if you do it, do it right.

Again I am not a fan for outsourcing as you and your company will be dependant and that may or may not work.

What I am doing now is, I do all the work myself and only higher a person from month to month as needed. Because the scale of what I do can vary.

That said one last thing, if everyone is expendable don’t expect loyalty that said you get good people that will do their best for their employer so again your own discursion is key.

Last thing tell me I whine again show disrespect and you can write to the ghosts of times past I will not respond.

peace.

[tec0]

Just as a last thing, if my company is strong enough I would hire permanent staff in a heartbeat.

[adrianh]

you have no idea do you? Well I will leave it at that.

As for employer employee relations.

Firstly establish the types of output you will have “short term products” and “long term products” Then establish what type of employee you need to keep your long term products going and what type of employee you need for short term.

Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed” your short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract and will replace all of them every 2 month. Thus they don’t hang around long enough to cause damage or get angry. This will solve your maid from hell problem. BUT remember because you are replacing ALL employees training will be a constant and your output will vary. So there is an upside and a downside.

The 3 month contract or “long term employee” will be given more responsibility “or less” depending on your needs BUT you will have to handle all sensitive documentation, funds and day to day problems as you will have no real “team leader” as your long term employees are not permanent.
Upsides are you can hire and fire at your heart’s content by simply not renewing contracts. No disciplinary action needed it is for the most part clean.

BUT I would employ a labour lawyer to get your fine print ready and make sure you are within the letter of the law. This is not optional as a bad contract can cost you and your company. So if you do it, do it right.

Again I am not a fan for outsourcing as you and your company will be dependant and that may or may not work.

What I am doing now is, I do all the work myself and only higher a person from month to month as needed. Because the scale of what I do can vary.

That said one last thing, if everyone is expendable don’t expect loyalty that said you get good people that will do their best for their employer so again your own discursion is key.

Last thing tell me I whine again show disrespect and you can write to the ghosts of times past I will not respond.

peace.

tec0 - Interesting but you still haven't answered the question: How will you resolve the scenario that I created?

Come on, use the brain that God gave you and think what you would do if it was your maid sitting outside your Wendy house.

[Dave A]

Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.

Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so wisely and responsibly and decisively.

I tend to agree. However, I regret I'm inclined to disagree with you as to the cause of the disaster looming large.

Perhaps the thing I find most ironic is the drive against labour brokers. Take a step back and look at the big picture. If the unions have their way; if everything is done just the way they want, they would be the new labour brokers, just far more powerful and paid their slice a different way.

But the big reason why we seem headed for disaster is -

At the moment our course is not being set by workers wanting a better wage.
It's not being driven by workers deserving a better wage.
It's not even being driven by alleged employer affordability to provide a better wage.
All totally irrelevant.

What we're looking at right now is a power struggle; between rival trade unions, and between trade unions and government. Business, and our economy, is just being caught in the crossfire. And it is abundantly clear that the unions engaged in this power struggle do not give a damn what havoc they wreak along the way.

[tec0]

I tend to agree. However, I regret I'm inclined to disagree with you as to the cause of the disaster looming large.

Perhaps the thing I find most ironic is the drive against labour brokers. Take a step back and look at the big picture. If the unions have their way; if everything is done just the way they want, they would be the new labour brokers, just far more powerful and paid their slice a different way.

But the big reason why we seem headed for disaster is -

At the moment our course is not being set by workers wanting a better wage.
It's not being driven by workers deserving a better wage.
It's not even being driven by alleged employer affordability to provide a better wage.
All totally irrelevant.

What we're looking at right now is a power struggle; between rival trade unions, and between trade unions and government. Business, and our economy, is just being caught in the crossfire. And it is abundantly clear that the unions engaged in this power struggle do not give a damn what havoc they wreak along the way.

I am sorry Dave but you are wrong on this one.

Right now there is a company with over 2000 employees, 4 years ago this company was taken over by an “international” company. There first order of business transfer all existing clients over to their other branches “outside” South Africa and then drive the equipment to the ground here without maintenance and now this plant is facing closure.

why to eliminate a degree of competition. The company may close down as soon as end this year. "If the situation is unchanged"

This is but one part of the things to come.

1@b0ur br0ker$

Right now you can no longer find permanent employment nor is there an option for permanent employment in larger industries. Secondly they are a hidden tax on both the employer and employee AND what the employer don’t want to see is the fact that they are also being enslaved because they have no control over their employees and secondly there is no room for negotiation and if prices goes up and you "the business" can no longer pay your company close down. The end... there is virtually no survival strategy.

If a single set of entities owns all the skill of this country then you "the business" are working for them the end. In the old times this was considered slavery and was so considered for a reason. In short this system isn't healthy BUT due to spite and deliberate action form the employers side this gets overlooked. They are thinking "I don't have to deal with unions anymore" But they don't consider "oh crap my competition can offer to pay more for the skill then I can and now I am losing everything"

Skill is in limited supply and if you cannot hire them someone else can and your business will suffer for it. With permanent employment you still have a chance to keep your employees but because it is simply to much "effort" people outsource but lets see how this plays out.