Metals Industry strike - my take

[tec0]

So what will then stop them from demanding a 100% increase next time?

There is an obvious line of what is possible and what isn’t possible. What is to stop you to increase your prices with a 100% or what is to stop tax from demanding a 100%? It is the same question. Realistically the larger mining groups could have avoided everything if they had implemented realistic wage and started with local development "spend a tiny amount of those BILLIONS on things like housing schools a hospital or two. But look where those workers live and what they have.

But they didn’t spend the money and that left an OPEN DOOR to what you see now. I know a lot of these workers not all of them are monsters they never hurt anyone and never wanted anyone to get hurt. All they want is to be able to live. Is that so wrong?

But because these large organizations left the door open to begin with you get what you get now. Truth is everything could have been avoided. If they have spend 1% of there profits imagine the impact it would have had.

truth is you have to spend money to make money. They didn't and here we are.

[Justloadit]

There is an obvious line of what is possible and what isn’t possible. What is to stop you to increase your prices with a 100% or what is to stop tax from demanding a 100%? It is the same question.

In my case, or any business, there is competition. Lest we not forget, we are on the world stage and competing with other countries, and quite frankly we are losing hands down.
In the case of employees, there are many unemployed who wish to work, and are not being employed because the unions are not allowing them to be employed.

[desA]

At some point, does SA marginalise itself on the world stage?

[IanF]

Numsa yesterday bemoaned Seifsa’s “hasty” decision to make public a proposed wage offer to try to end the strike in the metals sector.
“The NEC condemned the hasty decision taken by Seifsa to publicly communicate the offer … without affording the union an opportunity and a right to report back to members,” spokesperson Castro Ngobese said in a statement.
“This flies in the face of the union’s own democratic principles and processes to gain feedback and mandates from our members, the real custodians of the strike.”

This is from the Witness.

I can't help thinking that the Egos from both sides are too big and thus they miss each other. Would the unions ever agree to decentralised bargaining?

[tec0]

In my case, or any business, there is competition. Lest we not forget, we are on the world stage and competing with other countries, and quite frankly we are losing hands down.
In the case of employees, there are many unemployed who wish to work, and are not being employed because the unions are not allowing them to be employed.

Job seekers are also competitive and we can add job scarcity into the mix. The reality however we are not talking about a small shop or business we are talking about a 500 Billion Dollar infrastructure that didn’t spend any or little money in the local sector. “Create jobs business opportunities training social development” and really they have the money to do exactly that. But they don’t? Why? I mean look at there profits, they are doing very well considering.

Truth is they didn’t spend the money or enough money and now our local infrastructure will no longer function because it doesn’t matter if you have a job or not you cannot afford the basics. If money was spend on development local communities would be more positive a better labour relation would have been possible. I mean this is basic social commitment stuff.

But right now people see “hey this company makes more than our whole country can in a year but I the worker cannot eat or afford hospital care but I have a job” Any other reasonable mentality goes out of the window because you know the funds are available but they still live in shacks still have to burn unwashed coal to be warm there is no local facilities and they are fighting to survive but you have a job??? And I am not talking about those monsters that killed both other employees and security personnel and police personnel. I am talking about the standard person willing to listen and find a solution. The worker willing to lose his life just to go to work. We seem to forget them in these conversations "posts"

So what is reasonable? Is none development reasonable? Is going to sleep hungry reasonable? Is no education reasonable? Is poor health reasonable?

The reality is if there was local development and reasonable job increases wadge increases none of this would have happened.

It is not just a question of wadge it is a question about development and infrastructure and the basic right to life. Health and safety and self worth.

But now all of this is to late, the door was left open and bad people got control over the situation. "damage to property, communication failure and violence as seen on TV"

But truth is all of this was avoidable.

[IanF]

But right now people see “hey this company makes more than our whole country can in a year but I the worker cannot eat or afford hospital care but I have a job” Any other reasonable mentality goes out of the window because you know the funds are available but they still live in shacks still have to burn unwashed coal to be warm there is no local facilities and they are fighting to survive but you have a job???

@teco if this thinking is the reality for the workers we will never have decent growth and/or jobs in our country.

Just look at your own reality where family members are doing you in, in your ventures. Now you don't want to micro manage your workforce to get them productive and you want them happy and productive.
An example this morning that blew my mind was the light tube above the guillotine was not working. When I went in I told the operator to go get tube upstairs, but we didn't have one. Then 2 minutes later he comes to me and says the light is working it wasn't in properly. What makes me cross is why is their no initiative from him until you ask him to fix it. They would rather work in the dark.



How do you motivate workers who show no interest in there jobs or the company?
This is why you outsource.

[Justloadit]

What do the unions do with the millions of Rands they receive monthly in subs?
If they were any better than the employers, they would create restructuring plans to enable their members to better themselves, and as soon as the programs were running, they could approach the employers to contribute. The union bosses rather take the money and pay themselves handsomely, and represent themselves from grand offices.

So who is at fault here? The unions or the employers? It is always easy to blame some one else, the unions have the power to make this happen, but it is easier to blame the employers.
The last time I saw Vavi being interviewed on TV at his home, I could not help but to notice the fancy couches there were siting on, the curtains on the windows in the back ground, and the expensive decorative things on the side tables, and my wife even commented on that there was no way that we could afford those furnishings. So lets not blame the big companies, I think the unions are just as guilty, for doing absolutely nothing but using their members as pawns in their political battle.

[adrianh]

tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking.

Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.

So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?

[tec0]

How do you motivate workers who show no interest in there jobs or the company?
This is why you outsource.

I see this a lot and and I am not even going to argue with you because you are right. You want an employee that can think for her/himself. Second truth is you cannot micro manage "but you do" in the end because you know as I do if you don't keep your eye on things crap will hit the fan.

I agree you have the right to a good employee that does your business proud. You must retain the right to fire a bad employee and replace a bad employee with a good one. It is your business you must make those choices and have the right to make those choices.

And that is what I am on about actually. I am not talking about the 1000 employes that run around doing bad things. All my post are about those that have faith in the company and show up for work even when it is dangerous. That understand that conversation and management must happen before things can change. They are the ones I would like to see have a good home, must be able to afford things like health care and all those good things.

And this is why I say companies could have introduced structures to maintain and help those employees.

You like myself will be more then willing to help a good employee out if it is within your power to do so.

Sadly systems wasn't introduced and we have what we have and its just not the way to go.

[adrianh]

tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking.

Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.

So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?

tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

[Hertzel]

All my post are about those that have faith in the company and show up for work even when it is dangerous. That understand that conversation and management must happen before things can change. They are the ones I would like to see have a good home, must be able to afford things like health care and all those good things.

And this is why I say companies could have introduced structures to maintain and help those employees.

You like myself will be more then willing to help a good employee out if it is within your power to do so.

Sadly systems wasn't introduced and we have what we have and its just not the way to go.

No Company wants to lose good employees. Look at it this way currently the companies use a lot of money to pay for bad employees as a result of unions (increases, incentives etc... is not performance based it’s a blanket. So the good pay for the bad.

If no unions where involved and a company treat employees bad or the salary wasn't fair that company would have a high staff turnover and that mean little experience workers. The company is sure to lose a lot of money and will eventually come up with better packages and skill developments to make sure not to lose their good employees. Also if you are rewarded for performance you will be motivated to improve. Like I see it I would not be a performer if I belong to a union as the outcome will be the same for doing what is required and for going the extra mile.

[Justloadit]

As I have always said, if you make yourself an indispensable employee, that's when you will be able to control your life, and be paid what you are worth.

[adrianh]

As I have always said, if you make yourself an indispensable employee, that's when you will be able to control your life, and be paid what you are worth.

There is a downside to this. If you specialize in one company's systems and the $h1t hits the fan then you are in big trouble. I've been through it. I spent many years programming for a company on their in-house system using their in-house tools. You go up through the ranks and eventually become part of management. Then one day they restructure or get taken over and you are stuffed because you've lots touch with the rest of the industry.

Companies have to keep in step with market demands and as such grow and shrink and adapt all the time. *Imagine if you were the expert typewriter engineer for Olivetti when PC's hit the market.

I agree with you in principle but I also think that one needs to learn learn learn and always have an exit plan in case something goes wrong with the company. The most important thing for me is that one should not only have a short term view on employment but also a long term view that is geared for you to grow and adapt to changing needs. This might sound odd but I am convinced that a woman who knows hair dressing will always be able to make a living but a woman who has a BCOMM may be unemployed. I am not saying that one shouldn't to a BCOMM, hell, of course you should if you have the opportunity, what I am saying is that one should have a failsafe fall-back position.

[tec0]

What do the unions do with the millions of Rands they receive monthly in subs?
If they were any better than the employers, they would create restructuring plans to enable their members to better themselves, and as soon as the programs were running, they could approach the employers to contribute. The union bosses rather take the money and pay themselves handsomely, and represent themselves from grand offices.

So who is at fault here? The unions or the employers? It is always easy to blame some one else, the unions have the power to make this happen, but it is easier to blame the employers.
The last time I saw Vavi being interviewed on TV at his home, I could not help but to notice the fancy couches there were siting on, the curtains on the windows in the back ground, and the expensive decorative things on the side tables, and my wife even commented on that there was no way that we could afford those furnishings. So lets not blame the big companies, I think the unions are just as guilty, for doing absolutely nothing but using their members as pawns in their political battle.

It is true that some not all but some "organization for employees" don’t invest enough and like other large companies they are yet to create a true infrastructure that will benefit the worker long term.

I know some not all but some "organization for employees" have "systems" But what is the cost to attend those "systems"? I stand to be corrected but it appears they also are implementing "Screening Criteria" Thus I ask the question will those with learning disorders be helped?

[tec0]

No Company wants to lose good employees. Look at it this way currently the companies use a lot of money to pay for bad employees as a result of unions (increases, incentives etc... is not performance based it’s a blanket. So the good pay for the bad.

If no unions where involved and a company treat employees bad or the salary wasn't fair that company would have a high staff turnover and that mean little experience workers. The company is sure to lose a lot of money and will eventually come up with better packages and skill developments to make sure not to lose their good employees. Also if you are rewarded for performance you will be motivated to improve. Like I see it I would not be a performer if I belong to a union as the outcome will be the same for doing what is required and for going the extra mile.

Actually no...

I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually. So yes I don’t really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee.

The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.

That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable.

You don’t know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it.

When you do conduct the disciplinary hearing make SURE you have ALL the FACTS and all are PROVEN as FACT. My advice is spend the money get the facts as the law provides. A good lawyer that specialise in labour relations is worth GOLD so do the leg work find a good one and protect your company legally from bad employees.