The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

[FRENCHIE]

Hi guys.
In connection with issuing a supplementary to the original COC'S, is a total unreasonable requirement, as you have been requested to do a small alteration by installing a plug or a light, as i have mentioned before, when you do a new installation you give multiple copies of the COC's, to everyone owners, architect, engineers, etc. Then you ask client on completion of the installation could we have the original COC not once have we had them find it.
This is what we do.
1. Do a total COC of the existing installation.
2. Warn the client that their installation is not compliant.
3. Give the client a rough idea of what the issue are.
4. Never give a detailed information of the defects.
5. Give them a quote and see if they accept the price.
6. If price has not been approved.
7. Issue COC FORMS as an alteration.
8. Under section ( sorry on holiday can't check the section number).
We state that the existing installation is not compliant and mention the exact installation that we have done.

I know as mentioned on previous posts that you will be responsible for the entire existing installation, but you must be totally out of your mind if you can tell the client sorry but we have to switch you OFF, because your installation is not compliant, I am sure you will be shot at before you reach main switch.

As mentioned before where are the electrical inspectors.

SORRY HAD TO BRING THAT UP AGAIN

[ians]

It's to good to hear people complaining about inspectors changing a decent rate for COC's ... I have had 2 complaints about inspectors charging R1500 for a small installations and R R2000 for a installation carried out by someone else (becoming common for solar and inverter installs)

Its about time ... as mentioned by someone ... everything is doubling in price ... its about time we bought our rates up so we can also earn a living wage.

R750 call out fee ... excluding per km rate (domestic) should be for the 2 bob sparkies ... going up from that depending on your setup and experience.

Its good to see the economy is taking off ... 3 calls already for work this morning and its only 7.45 am and I am so busy I cant keep up with the work load ... so what I am doing is focusing on customer who have supported me when I needed them.

[mygoggie]

It's to good to hear people complaining about inspectors changing a decent rate for COC's ... I have had 2 complaints about inspectors charging R1500 for a small installations and R R2000 for a installation carried out by someone else (becoming common for solar and inverter installs)

Its about time ... as mentioned by someone ... everything is doubling in price ... its about time we bought our rates up so we can also earn a living wage.

R750 call out fee ... excluding per km rate (domestic) should be for the 2 bob sparkies ... going up from that depending on your setup and experience.

Its good to see the economy is taking off ... 3 calls already for work this morning and its only 7.45 am and I am so busy I cant keep up with the work load ... so what I am doing is focusing on customer who have supported me when I needed them.

As the saying goes, "pay a worker his due" and I share your sentiments. I now made the decission to charge my worth and as you find, work has started streaming in. I am really glad for you @ians !

[Firepool]

Been lurking on here for a while
I work for one of cape towns biggest electrical companies..well biggest in my area(pity no competition which is a big pain) and we have a compliance business that does in some months over 60 compliance certficates..not going to get started on water but below is electrical
Where do I start by listing out the issues.We are tired and gatvol like everybody on here (especially Ians.)
-Sellers dont want to pay no matter how big or small the job
-Buyers want a new house and dont want to or dont understand the word household maintenance
-Biggest issue is the timing of a transfer.Things stop working or become faulty in between the time we were there and new buyer moves in.You want a quick transfer not 6 months and empty house.IE Pool pumps dont like to stand and when they do the first time you put them they trip .First thing that is said was compliance even done her.So irritating as are they suddenly the experts on what compliance issue is and no bulbs are not compliance issues
-Estate agents after selling properties still cant understand what compliance is about.Any issue is somehow a compliance issue no matter what..You buying a second hand house not new house
-Nature of work...more work you do the more other things click out.You do the right thing by putting bypassed things on earth leakage and faults are exposed and who do you think gets the blame...happens alot with UFH
-Confusion in market among sparky on whats a issue..we will pass 2 cable into a gland and dont see that as illegal entry .You fix that and it just causes more issues.Another compliance company will come and throw you under the bus or worse the bakkie brigade..A house wife or agent just hears non compliant and you got nowhere to explain yourself.You could go to their work and find similar faults even though house is safe both ways.
-Inspection authority .Are they good for the industry? We are South Africa (3rd world country ) not Germany.They can create confusion as different inspector apply law differently.The registered person shoudl be able to take responsibility and say house is safe not non complaint cause needs stickers somewhere.
-Public want to hold you accountable for any issue in the house as you did compliance there.Most of these issues cannot be predicted like leaks causing tripping.
-If you a electrical firm and you even change a plug at a clients house ,now suddenly you liable for compliance of whole house as you worked there.Some Housewives are the worst at this
-You cant see everything as dont live in House but somehow expected to know how house is wired or what switches what
-Buyer wanting things that you blanked off as non compliant and cheaper to blank off.Now a spot light becomes a big issue
-Biggest issue behind the timing is not understanding difference between maintenance and compliance.The public think that everything must work..our biggest issue
-Technically not sure I agree with UFH thermostat having a isolater as can be an expensive exercise in big house
-Pool boards are hardly ever compliant and cuase issues as often timers get out of sync after work done..many call backs after working in pool board
-Loadshedding time is a terrible time to do isolaters to gate motors ...battery cant recharge..so many issues.
-Surges are unlucky if happening in area on council side as not a compliance issue and seller wont install surge protection and your reputation takes a hit and nothing you can do to control surges (well the first one).
That is a few of issues .I was thinking of creating a website to put everybody on same page

[Peter26]

Can you put two DB' in one enclosure?

[mygoggie]

Can you put two DB' in one enclosure?

As per SANS definition -
3.25
distribution board
switchboard
switchgear and controlgear assembly
enclosure that contains electrical equipment for the distribution or control of electrical power from one or more incoming circuits to one or more outgoing circuits

In my opinion a DB is an enclosure with electrical equipment array fitted into the same enclosure. In my understanding there can be a number of equipment arrays within the same enclosure as long as the main --> sub-board requirements for each array are met.

[Madek]

The problem is who will hold the person accountable. I know of at least 2 incorrect coc s and installations not compliant at all
that was reported to the eca and they did nothing. AiA inspector wad involved in the one still nothing only a report. DOL did nothing not it even cancelling that companies registration. Tried all the routes and you hit the wall everywhere. Tried the legal route and again thousands of rands later and still this public facility is operating without intervention of DOL AIA and ECA

[Madek]

Totally agree. My husband did a report of an incorrect geyser installation at a town house complex after a 6 yr old boy got shocked and burnt. This could of been fatal. The report was given through to the townhiuse management. He fixed the geyser. And then what happened. Nothing. Nothing happened to the plumber who installed the geyser. Who is suppose to take this further

[Smiley]

I just want to add a titbit here ito CoC, as it is the "new" thing nowadays.

The only people that can give a CoC for a solar installation, are:
B. Installation Electrician who can work on a Three Phase installations. Normally buildings and factories supplied with 380 Volt three-phase supply
C. Master Electrician for Hazardous Locations, basically petrol stations, mines, and flammable areas.

[gautengaleng]

What's the required amps for a stove breaker switch? I'm buying an apartment and an electrician said by law he has to replace the switch from 25 amps to 40 or 50 (don't recall which). Sellers decided to send another electrician coz the first quote was too high. And this one says 25 amps is fine. So which is which?

[GCE]

What's the required amps for a stove breaker switch? I'm buying an apartment and an electrician said by law he has to replace the switch from 25 amps to 40 or 50 (don't recall which). Sellers decided to send another electrician coz the first quote was too high. And this one says 25 amps is fine. So which is which?

There is no regulation stipulating the size of circuit required for a stove - Now a days with everyone going gas hob 25 amps is more than enough
If you are going to use all 4 plates , oven and warmer draw all at the same time then 25Amps may be to light

An oven is around 2 Kw which is 8 amps and once at temp comes on and off to maintain temp - a stove plate is +/- 1,5kw , around 6 amps

You can buy a stove that plugs into a normal socket

From SANS 10142-1 ed 3.1

6.16.3.2 Cooking appliance circuits
6.16.3.2.1 A dedicated circuit(s) shall be provided for cooking appliance(s)
that are rated at more than 16 A.

[Derlyn]

Well today I pulled in a new geyser circuit for a granny flat. On completion I asked the client for the existing COC so that I could get the number and date issued to enter on the supplementary which I was about to issue for the geyser circuit.

The client then requested that I add the Citiq single phase meter that had been installed by someone else a week back.
I declined, telling him that whoever installed the meter must, by law, issue a coc for that work.

The story then came out that he was charged R2500 for installing the meter and to issue a COC would be R1500 extra.
Thats R3800 for 30 minutes work. The meter costs R200. R7600 per hr labour. I'm obviously underquoting.

[Smiley]

... On completion I asked the client for the existing COC so that I could get the number and date issued to enter on the supplementary which I was about to issue for the geyser circuit.

Same happened to me.
Dec last year, new addition, new young sparkie asks for the Initial CoC on the house to add the new Supplementary.

I then learned, the house, after it was bought, the 2 year period of that CoC for the sale, has expired 11 years ago.
The house had no Initial CoC after the sale.

He could not give me a CoC until I have the Initial was in place.

Checking the CoC for work done over the years with CoC's given, the Initial CoC column was blank.

And then the "fights started"!

Companies give CoC, pay for 3, that last 2 years each so you get "6 years" paid for upfront, every 2 years re-issued.
House is not being sold!!! Initial CoC stays in effect until the house is sold again.
When a house is sold, seller must get a CoC, it being valid for 2, unless a change is done in the 2 years.

Other Co's quote between R10k and R40k for a CoC.
How do you get that to number, I asked.
O, it is what we generally find the repairs to be.
So CoC's are a "guarantee" for repairs popped to mind.

Another Co, "O, you need to upgrade your solar inverter, it is too small for the house. I cannot sign that off. I recommend this inverter ... "
What, it is a grid tied system, properly certified and installed, with solar engineer signoff!? What are you smoking!?

And then we have sparkies telling me with absolutely conviction that we need "XYZ repairs".
You then ask other electrical experts, who point you to the latest regulations book they have in hand that the work is on code, the latest code.
Sparkies taking one moerse chance to generate income for themselves to fix that what was right in the first instance.

One trick I learned. Sparkie comes onsite. I ask them, do you have the latest copy of the latest released regulations book in hand?
Can I see it?
That gets very interesting ...

This having to pay for a CoC when sparkie does the work, no idea where that came from.
When a new sparkie must come in to re-certify a house, their labour to check everything, the only charge one should pay for.
... if they have the latest book in hand.

Then one can get a CoC, legit CoC, the sparkie having done a adhoc spot check of 10% of the total circuit.

[Sparks]

Total lack of ethics and complete disregard of SANS. Contractors who do not issue COCs' after altering an installation should lose their accreditation. They are just giving the rest of us a bad name. Besides ripping off their clients. Since the solar rush began it has been even worse than previously because the bakkie brigade were not in a position to certify so the demand was huge for COCs and everyone needed them to get their tax rebates. Sadly most of those COCs' were also issued illegally because the original installations were not covered and still are not covered by a valid COC. Should an incident occur which leads to an insurance claim, the insurer has grounds to refuse settlement because of the invalid COC issued for the solar section. That would open the issueing contractor to legal proceedings whereby he might actually be liable to bring the original installation up to standard at his expense.

[Oldskool]

Thank you for all this valuable information.