The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

[Dave A]

So if i attached a letter of service to my Annexure 3 application, can they then remove me from the registration as IE at the company and put me under the new company?

You can try that, I suppose...

In our case, we had to submit a sworn affidavit from the IE we were wanting to register onto our contractor registration, and plead for DOL to accept an email from the previous contractor confirming that the IE was no longer employed by them.

[Rifrug]

Hi guys, this is a bit off topic question, can an employer register a electrician working for them as an I.E or M.I.E at the ECA for online C.O.C’s and than the employer receive access to this C.O.C’s on behalf of that registered person, the password to such a online C.O.C. is given to the employer doing the registration? or is this incorrect and password is only given to that licensed person, Any knowledge on the registration process and access granted to whom, will be appreciated.

[ians]

I had to fill out a COC last week ... havent done that in a while ... someone needs to educate the design engineer who came up with the layout and content ... i forgot how ridiculous it is repeating myself over and over ... with the least amount of actual information that would determine the saftey of an entire installation

An xl spreadshett with circuit information and results would be a good start.

[Dave A]

Hi guys, this is a bit off topic question, can an employer register a electrician working for them as an I.E or M.I.E at the ECA for online C.O.C’s and than the employer receive access to this C.O.C’s on behalf of that registered person, the password to such a online C.O.C. is given to the employer doing the registration? or is this incorrect and password is only given to that licensed person, Any knowledge on the registration process and access granted to whom, will be appreciated.

Based on my experience, the COC blank stock is issued to the Electrical Contractor.

If that sounds contrary to the Electrical Installation Regulations, consider this:
Is the COC issued when someone drafts it (fills in the details), once the responsible person signs it, or once it is given to the client after it has been drafted and signed...?

I gently suggest the employer should control the stock, but it is critical that it is only issued via the signing off of the responsible person.

To my mind in a perfect world there should be two sign-offs on any eCOC - the Contractor and the Responsible Person.
The regs may hold the responsible person to account, but whenever the shyte hits the fan, it is the Electrical Contractor that picks up the tab for the school fees...

[Dave A]

I had to fill out a COC last week ... havent done that in a while ... someone needs to educate the design engineer who came up with the layout and content ... i forgot how ridiculous it is repeating myself over and over ... with the least amount of actual information that would determine the saftey of an entire installation

An xl spreadshett with circuit information and results would be a good start.

You will be delighted to hear that thanks to a SANS 10142-1 update due to take effect any day now, a two page COC is just around the corner.

[ians]

You will be delighted to hear that thanks to a SANS 10142-1 update due to take effect any day now, a two page COC is just around the corner.

Thank goodness ... but not really because i still have a pile of the old yellow COC's which i bought about 10 years ago (which i still use on occassion) which means i have to waste money buying new ones.

While on the COC subject ... is part of the update going to include ...random checks on issued COC's and some form of policing ... because without it it just more wasted money ... much like redoing your drivers every 5 years ... its just money for the "system" ... with no real value to the consumer.

(we can fly to the moon and back ... i can scan a box and setup a P2P with the click of a button ... but i have to go back check speling and grammar everytime i type something as my eye sight fails and my brain thinks faster than my hands move ... it just gets worse)

[Artvark]

Hi

I am in the final stages of purchasing a property which isn't registered yet.

I noticed the COC isn't compliant and have had the electrical inspectors come and confirm the same.

Many of the lights do not work. I originally assumed that it was just the bulbs etc. but I have now realized that the light fittings and or fuses/ energisers etc. are faulty.

Who's responsible for this ? Does it fall outside of the point of consumption ?

Also with regards to fixed lights that have been added & mounted on walls with screws etc. Can they be connected to the electricity with standard wiring leading to plugs ? Some lights are camping caravan lights.

Where can I as a layman find information on the standards & regulations wrt my installation ?

Thx
Riaan

[ians]

Hi

I am in the final stages of purchasing a property which isn't registered yet.

I noticed the COC isn't compliant and have had the electrical inspectors come and confirm the same.

Many of the lights do not work. I originally assumed that it was just the bulbs etc. but I have now realized that the light fittings and or fuses/ energisers etc. are faulty.

Who's responsible for this ? Does it fall outside of the point of consumption ?

Also with regards to fixed lights that have been added & mounted on walls with screws etc. Can they be connected to the electricity with standard wiring leading to plugs ? Some lights are camping caravan lights.

Where can I as a layman find information on the standards & regulations wrt my installation ?

Thx
Riaan

The only way to make sure the COC is legit ...STOP THE TRANSFER ...and get your own inspector to test the property.

Dont waste your time trying to figue the rules and regs.

[Justloadit]

If transfer is taking place, it means that you have already paid to the transfer attorney the full sale price, or else there would be no transfer initiated.
Stopping the transfer may have legal issues, and you could loose your deposit depending on the T & Cs of the offer to purchase agreement.
The COC and issues you have now raised should have been verified before any deposits and signatures applied to contracts.

Going the legal route is going to cost lots of time and lots of money, your decision, and while legal action is taking place, you may not do any work to clear the issues. I am not an attorney and therefor you should seek legal advice on your options.

Alternatively try and negotiate a discount on the sale price (very difficult as the transfer is in motion, as there is little leverage) or else you are going to be stuck with this, and sort it out yourself with a qualified electrician.

[ians]

If transfer is taking place, it means that you have already paid to the transfer attorney the full sale price, or else there would be no transfer initiated.
Stopping the transfer may have legal issues, and you could loose your deposit depending on the T & Cs of the offer to purchase agreement.
The COC and issues you have now raised should have been verified before any deposits and signatures applied to contracts.

Going the legal route is going to cost lots of time and lots of money, your decision, and while legal action is taking place, you may not do any work to clear the issues. I am not an attorney and therefor you should seek legal advice on your options.

Alternatively try and negotiate a discount on the sale price (very difficult as the transfer is in motion, as there is little leverage) or else you are going to be stuck with this, and sort it out yourself with a qualified electrician.

Not if there has been an illegal/fraudulent (COC) document. We have just done it with a sale where APE electrical issued a COC ... we got Tom Jones electrical ( we needed a second opinion) in to do an inspection and found that the list of faults was longer than expected ... A meeting was setup with the both parties and the new owner ... it established that the COC issued was not up to standard and that APE would return and "fix" all the parts of the installations which were not up to standard.

If the transfer goes through and the COC is not illegal ...the process to "fix" becomes the new owners responsiblity ... the new owner has to contact the AIA (another story on its own) which could take weeks if not months ... the new owner has to pay for the repairs and then claim.

My advise ... i get involved in bullshyte a lot ... if you suspect the house is not up to standard ... spend the moeny and get your own inspector to check the property ...other wise you ar ein for a long haul.

To make it even worse ...most new owners couldnt be bothered with the hassle of sorting out the COC ...then they try sell their house and suddenly the poor sucker (electrician) who has been doing the work for the new owner is suddenly the bad person who should have told the customer about the issue ... i recently told a customer to piss off (not so nicely) ...when she tried this shyte with me ... been there ...have a whole cupboard of TEE shirts.

[Artvark]

The transfer isn't completed yet. And it cannot be completed until a valid COC is re-issued.
So I need to hold the seller and his electrician accountable now, while I still can.

I am waiting for the inspector to come and verify the fixes.

Back to my questions: as the inspector and various different electricians have different opinions on what compliance means for fixed lights that are plugged in.

I.e. if the cord is less than 3m long it's ok ?
Others say if it is permanently plugged in and it's fixed to the wall with screws etc. than it should not be permanently plugged in, it needs to be either removed or done according to sans standards ? Do the light fittings need to work ?

I need clarity as I will eventually be the one responsible and liable for this.

[Rifrug]

It might be worth getting at least two quotes from licensed electricians and contact the estate agent who done the sale explaining to them the issue and claiming the repairs directly from them. if the estate agency is worth anything they will assist in contacting the seller and informing him of the non-compliance issues that he needs to rectify as the non-compliance is a breach in contract. You are entitled to a legal coc. Then if you have not yet signed at the layers, when they contact you to arrange the signing of documents advise them you are more than happy to sign but the breech in purchase to offer contract needs urgent attention and delay signing if possible. I had similar issue before and my estate agent sorted the issues.

[Artvark]

If you read one post, this is it:

This is not my first rodeo.
Transfer cannot happen without a valid ECOC.

As the buyer it's CRUCIAL that you check the ECOC BEFORE transfer. You can demand to get a copy from the seller.

1 Check if the electrician is registered.

2 Get your own verified, certified, recommended electrician to spend 1 hour to assess your property wrt COC.(I have one in JHB if you need one).

It's worth, every, cent !

3 In my opinion most ECOC's nowadays are rubbish. You ! will be liable to fix all the issues missed, when you sell your house one day. If it doesn't burn down.

Make the effort. Or you could be liable for huge amounts. In my case about R80k. But I am going to hold the seller accountable before registration. Afterwards it's a huge mess.

My 2c. Use it/ don't.

[Derlyn]

Artvark

Many guys have overlooked your question regarding lights not working.

My opinion is that most electricians are unsure .... and therefore hesitant to answer your question, myself included.

I have checked the regs and my contribution is as follows.

1. Lights are not included in the COC. ( Note 3 on the test report confirms this )
2. The circuits to fixed appliances are covered but not the appliance itself.
3. From the regulations it states that a luminaire (light) becomes a fixed appliance when it is combined with a fan.
4. The regulations for a fixed appliance are thus only applicable for a light when it is combined with a fan.
5. The problem arises with the definition of a fixed appliance. A light that is mounted to the wall is a fixed appliance because one needs to use a tool to remove it. Is it a fixed appliance ?
I don't know.

From the above one can see that there is a grey area as far as lights are concerned. That is why electricians differ on this issue.

When I do an inspection on a domestic installation and come across lights that have been plugged into socket outlets, I always quote to rewire them onto the lighting circuit so as to prevent any comebacks in future. That said, I'm still not sure whether a light plugged into a socket outlet is legal or not.

Maybe some of the other toppies can comment.

Peace out ... Derek

[Sparks]

Artvark

You have already received the best advice.
Stop the transfer immediately, there will be no legal consequences because you are justified in doing so. At the same time issue the transferring attorney with notice of intended prosecution should the illegal registration take place before obtaining a valid COC. They allow transfers despite the knowledge that COCs' are invalid. After registration you have no leg to stand on.
As already stated light fittings are not covered by the COC but, a light fitting may be plugged into an unswitched socket oulet in a wiring circuit. Then we get to "fixtures" and "appliances". Depending on the "deed of sale"/ "offer to purchase" terms and conditions "fixtures" may be part of the sale. In this case all light fittings which are secured to the building form part of the sale and become an "appliance". Regulations applicable include the capacity to isolate it by means of an isolator which breaks contact with both live and neutral OR by means of a socket outlet. Furthermore, the length of the cable between said socket outlet and the appliance is limited as is the gauge and type of cabling used. The "appliance" must also meet the required earth continuity for the specific circuit current.
You are also entitled to serve the Estate agent with a notice of intended prosecution on the grounds of advertising a house for sale without complying to Article 12 which states that "no item may be sold, bartered, traded or, to the full extent of the law, be given away for free, if there exists, for said item, a safety standard, unless all requirements of said safety requirements have been met.