The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

[ians]

The problem is not the electrical industry ... life in general in SA has become as they call it in the education department "lower grade" ... where the trucks determine the width of the road ... the grass and trees have grown into the lanes of the freeway and the trucks cut them back s they pass ... thats just 1 example ... if you open your eyes and look around you notice Sa has become a filthy shyte hole ... another example ... if you driving out of Durban on old fort Rd just after the macs ... look down onto the train line ... in a couple of years that entire area will just be a waste heap.

As the older generation of sparkie pass on ... so the quality of workamanship will degrade ... and the wealth of information will pass away with them ... we are partly to blame for not taking on youngsters and teaching them so that they can learn and so pass it on.

I recall there were many chirps about the old railways ... but as I sit here today ... we had the best oportunity and training ... the standard were top notch ... points were alocated for neatness etc.

almost 40 years of hands on experience in the electricial industry ... from mass housing projects to commercial building installations ... shopping centres ... movie houses ... banks ... suger mills ... water treament and waste water design build and install ... factory installations and maintenance ... street lighting ... stadium lighting ...to power quality ... thermography ... CCTV and alarm installations ... gate installations and repairs ... the advantage I will have when employing sub conctractors ... if they f%^& up ... I can go in and fix the mess quickly I am actually looking forward to the new venture which will start in March 2021.

[Douglas 75]

Hi Sparks
Thanks for the fantastic explanation of a COC.
Can you please explain to me what the difference between a COMPETENT person (as defined in the General Machinery Regulations 1988) and a Registered Person is. The reason for this is with regards to Section 5.5 - Compliance of Installation From Commencement to Commissioning - Electrical installation is one of five or more installations on the same supply i.e. a block of flats each with their own DB.
Is it true that an registered person can sign this part of the form so long as he/she has fulfilled ONE of the requirements as stated in the General Machinery Regulations (Served Apprenticeship/ T3 or N5 / Engineer ) There has been much confusion around this section as to who can and can't sign. So for example a trade apprenticeship served with NTC 3, trade tested electrician with 18 years experience. Surely this will show his competence to sign this part of the COC.

thanks again

Hi Sir another clarification section 5 its engineer responsibilities to from commissioning and construction and procurement of material. The engineer must have Ecsa (Engineering council of South africa) registration Number as Professional Engineer, or Professional technologist. All the remain Part belong to the register person to sing and take responsibilities.
Most of the case Engineer they dont sign thats why in the updated Coc with Edition 3 of 2020, Section 5 has been modify .

[FRENCHIE]

GUYS.
I agree with all of the above.
BUT if there are NO electrical inspectors.
1. The COC's are not having the affect that was meant to have by controlling the RIFFAFF'S in our industry, without any professional electrical inspections you might as well scrap the COC forms.

2. Electrical engineers all they want to see is the final aesthetics of the contract, they don't inspect the installation, we have been involved in many extensions of essential buildings, and having to tie into the existing side of the building, one of them we had price therefore we had to do an investigation, we horrified by the existing installation was done, where there was exposed joints and somehow the multitude of rows of P8000 trunking suspended from the soffit and the trunking had shrunk over years from the initial installation ( bullsh1t), and the PVC house wires had somehow bloated (SH1T again), the reason why I can put my head on the chopping block on the above, is that it was NOT a problem for the contractor he took two long cable ties slipped together and kindly strapped every 1 meter or so the METAL P8000 TRUNKING COVER.
Totally flabbergasted because this building was only about 20 to 30 years old, so we took all sorts of pictures, showed the client then to their head office and nothing came of it.
Showed the pics to an electrical engineer and his response was, I quote ( we design and calculate the installation, the electrical contractors signs the COC and responsibility for the installation ) end of quote.
We sent these pics to the ECA for further justification ( that was lost in vacuum of the universe).
IN OTHER WORDS NOTHING CAME OF IT, and WE MUST HAVE BEEN TO MUCH OF A HEADACHE because we never got the contract and I am sure that the electrical installation of that building is the same.
AGAIN.
Without any professional inspections it will be same as above.

3. The authorities should spend less time on redesigning the COC forms and look what is happening in the real world, it is absolute nonsense.
A. Having to get the existing COC from the owner/tenant for installing a plug or light point, or you will be responsible for the entire installation.
B. You complete a contract you have to issue three copies of the COC's included in electrical manuals on in three separate files.
The original file to client
One to the architect
One to the electrical engineer
One to the builder
The very organization that are responsible of the electrical contractors to make sure that the well being of the HUMAN RIGHTS & SAFETY is the up most important, THEY DON'T GET ONE COPY, they don't even know that some electrics was done ( that's a joke).

4. The only thing that the authorities are worried about.
A. You are working on a ladder and you have to have a fully registered health & safety file for this chap, now you can't using him because you land up in vicious cycle.(what a waste money of resources)
B. Ear plugs when you using a drilling machine 😳.
C. You can't wear shorts.
D. You know the saying ( that the dogs tail is wagging the dog ).
A safety officer on site which has studied for his skills let's say 1 month can threaten you, that they can kick you OFF site because of a stupid reason like you working on a ladder and your head is tilted up connecting a light fitting and you're not wearing your helmet because it keeps falling off your head.

GUYS MY BAGS ARE FULL OF ANGER.

HELL how did all the old SPARKIES ever managed to get old we did NOT have ALL that BULLSH1T in our days, what it does is create employment, yes great now it cost so much more to build one building, rather than build more buildings for less they want more TOGS for shorter periods.
I JUST DON'T SEE THE LOGIC, ON ANY OF THE ABOVE.

FRENCHIE

[ians]

Lets no go into safety officers ... I am gonna stop right here.

I agree with new regulations ... as technology evolves so the rules and regs should ... however ... without policing you are wasting your time.

I was involved in a project a couple years ago ( a hospital) because the contractor has such a bad name around town ... there was a clause in the contract that independant inspectors had to test once the electrical installation was "complete" ... I still havent put a green sticker on any part of the installation ... the hospital is open ... payment also became a problem ...because I was told it was per COC that I would get paid ... I couldnt issue any COC's still to this day ... the installation was not ready at the time of the test ... lots of talk about stuff being almost ready and it would be done ... seeing is believing.

When you are on site testing and the "sparkies" cant figue out how 2 way switching works ... so there are wires hanging out the roof all over the place ... yet you are required to sign off the incomplete installation ... maybe that is how it is suppose to work ... I walked off site and someone else went in behind me and issued the COC's.

[Sparks]

@BlueArk A competent person is an accredited electrician who is himself registered with DOL as a contractor or under the "umbrella" registration at DOL of a company where the owner or a full time employee is registered with DOL. A trade Test does not make an electrician "competent" in terms of the law. Accreditation is a step in the right direction but, registration with DOL is the final requirement and cannot happen without accreditation. Well, used to in any case, the way things are now, accreditation, even qualification is a joke. For the most part I have no respect for engineers. They are mostly pen pushers who have the cat by the tail regarding methodology and practicality. There are very few exceptions. The calculations a school kid can do if you give him the formula. It would be a blessing in disguise that the engineer does not sign the COC if the COC was really regulated and policed. Ask any pharmacist how many times he has had to call up a doctor to query a script because it did not make sense or the medication clashed with other medication the patient was using or even because the dosage prescribed would kill the person. The guy in the trenches is the one who sees what materials are used and what method of installation and how that method is actually applied.

[Sparks]

I agree with new regulations ... as technology evolves so the rules and regs should

Yes but, as you also say it must be policed, which does not happen here. Regarding the hospital, how was it commissioned without a COC? Until complete the power should not have been connected. After testing, in the event of irregularities/incomplete work power should not be connected. You best bet now would be to systematically shut down section at a time over a few days until only critical sections are in operation. Then they are forced to pay up so that the work can be completed as it should be. You could most certainly rely on SAR&H for good training in all trades.

[ians]

Yes but, as you also say it must be policed, which does not happen here. Regarding the hospital, how was it commissioned without a COC? Until complete the power should not have been connected. After testing, in the event of irregularities/incomplete work power should not be connected. You best bet now would be to systematically shut down section at a time over a few days until only critical sections are in operation. Then they are forced to pay up so that the work can be completed as it should be. You could most certainly rely on SAR&H for good training in all trades.

They got another inspector who was willing to sign the COC's ... I am not saying the installation is not reasonably safe ... The person who came in behind me must have tested the installation and was happy to sign off the installation at that phase of completion.

[Sparks]

The story of our country. Even a disfunctional government repeatedly gets the votes

[FRENCHIE]

Ian the story of old sparkies every day life there will always be a contractor that is in for the money and not to the old fashion standards professionalism to which us old sparkiesare custom too.

Sparks I LMAO 🤣 😂 and crying 😢 at the same time, I don't have anymore walls left to smack my head on.

The younger sparkies are saying that the old farts sparkies are always COMPLAINING, HEHEHE.

[SeanM]

Morning All

I am in the process of registering an ‘off grid’ solar installation with the City of Cape Town.

The customer has a voltronic (axpert) inverter and the CoCT wants to know if it confirms to SANS 62040 to which no supplier can confirm, if this is the case all axpert inverters are illegal.

[ians]

I had a customer ask me a question last week ... If I get a COC for an installation and 3 months later use a different electrician to replace an earth leakage unit ... is the COC still valid.

The reason for the question ... the electrician who replaced the earth leakage unit and found some really suspect looking wiring ... he contacted the inspector who issued the COC ...who told him ... because someone else replaced the earth leakage ... the COC is no longer valid ... WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP.

This seems to be a common problem in the industry.

As I explained to the customer ... A COC is not required for a replacement earth leakage unit ...however it would be advisable to attach a note to the original COC with the trip value and test button press result.

This bullshyte of inspectors telling cusotmers that their COC is no longer valid because another electrician installed a new socket outlet or light circuit is not true .. .the only time it become invalid ... if the customer modifies or adds to the electrical installation without issuing a supplementary COC for the additions and alterations and even then it would be a tricky one if the inspector hasnt filled out hte COC properly and taken pics and made note and sketches.

How I understand it works (please feel free to correct me) from my experiences for example ... I am about to move a customer into a building ... I first make the property owner/manager issue a COC for the exisitng installation ... in other words the DB's ...lights ... plug ... aircons etc.

That COC ...remains the COC for the building electrical installation ... If I add a socket outlet or light points ... I do a supplementary COC which is attached to the original COC ... the fact that I now work on the building doesnt make the orginal COC invalid ... that is why it is a good idea to take picture with a date stamp if you feel the orginal COC is not valid or not done correctly.

I had this on the last factory relocation ... the COC wasnt worth the paper it was written on ... I took pics and made notes of all the illegal wiring and forwarded it to my customer and the property management company ... there is a catch ... because that COC is invalid ... I cannot issue any supplementary COC's until the electrical installation is bought up to standard and a valid COC is issued ... who will be liable for claims ... that could get interesting.

[12mathaba]

Hell guys, I have come across the new COC book which requires me to test neutral loop impedance at the main switch. Can you explain this as it is a first time to see it and hear about it.
Many thanks

Xolani Rorwana

[SeanM]

Greetings

The PSC and Loop impedance for your COC is done at the main breaker (with the main breaker turned off)

Note this should be done for all DB’s that form part of the installation.

[SeanM]

Greetings All

I recently learned that a test report has to be issued for all DB’s that form part of the installation.

When I did my training we were taught to only indicate the highest readings.

We learn every day.

I see it says that a test report needs to be done for the supply as well which I don’t really understand.

[nasri]

,main db and the sub db?