That makes sense, and considering you mentioned they have been there since 2006 and they still work, shows maybe its not such an extreme environment.
I recall the shops we worked in the electrics took a proper beating. I use to hate working working in the fast food shops, peeling off fat from the fitting to get to the screws, eeeeish not something I miss. the hit and run revamp fellas were in and out ASAP.
Originally Posted by GCE
Comments are my opinion, unless regulations are attached to support the comment. This is social media, not a court room.
This is an interesting topic, with many considerations to take into account.
1/ Is the location suitable for a socket outlet?
2/ Should it be treated as a stationary or portable appliance it has wheels and is moved around. It is certainly not a fixed appliance.
3/ Can the socket be mounted directly above the appliance?
4/ Should it be a dedicated socket outlet not connected to an ELU?
6/ Should the socket be IP rated, considering the location, but also taking into account that there is an extractor fan which can create enough air movement to reduce the impact of the heat and moisture?
7/ The type of cable used to connect the appliance to the socket outlet, heat and oil resistant, and double insulated.
I am sure this topic has been discussed in detail with a panel of engineers for them to be exempt from ELU protection for certain fast food outlets (if that is the case, which I am sure it was, considering the source of the information).
It is a topic that would certainly require some consideration.
If you walked in the room and just looked at the location of the socket in comparison to the appliance, during normal operation your first impression would be ... who would be so stupid as to install a socket directly above an appliance like a chip fryer, with all that heat and moisture" but clearly the cost factor to install ELU for ever single 3 phase socket outlet in the shop"
6.16.1.1 Fixed appliances do not form part of the electrical installation other than their positioning in relation to the supply and the wiring carried out between different parts of the appliances.
b) a socket-outlet that is directly accessible at all times that any person is exposed to such appliance while the supply is on. In the case of a remotely installed appliance, the position of the disconnecting device shall be indicated by means of a notice in close proximity to or on the appliance.
NOTE The socket-outlet has to be protected against earth leakage so, unless the protection device (see (b)) is in the control unit, the entire cooking appliance circuit has to be protected against earth leakage.
b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 60309-1 (industrial type) with 30 mA earth leakage protection, however, the use of industrial type socketoutlets is not recommended for stove connections.
6.16.3 Cooking appliances NOTE Cooking appliances include built-in stoves, oven hobs, and the like (see also 6.16.1).
6.16.3.1 Switch-disconnector6.16.3.1.1 The circuit that supplies a cooking appliance through fixed wiring, a stove coupler (see 6.16.3.3), or an industrial type socket-outlet (see SANS 60309-1), shall have a readily accessible switch-disconnector. The switch-disconnector may supply more than one appliance.
6.16.3.1.2 A switch-disconnector for a cooking appliance(s) shall a) be in the same room as the appliance(s), b) be at a height above floor level of not less than 0,5 m and not more than 2,2 m,c) preferably not be above the cooking appliance(s), d) be within 3 m of the appliance(s), but within 0,5 m of the appliance(s) if the switch-disconnector's purpose is not clearly indicated, and
Not forgetting the OSHACT, I am sure there is a bunch of regs that should also be considered.
Comments are my opinion, unless regulations are attached to support the comment. This is social media, not a court room.
You also need to consider that some of the appliance connected to the socket outlets are sealed during normal operation and not open.
Comments are my opinion, unless regulations are attached to support the comment. This is social media, not a court room.
For me, it's quite simple.
Had that installation been built yesterday, it would be a requirement for those socket outlets to be on earth leakage.
That cannot be disputed.
I cannot remember once ever not fitting an earth leakage to circuits that require them, irrespective of the date that the installation was installed.
A socket outlet, without earth leakage protection, installed in 1990 has the same potential of injury or death as one installed yesterday without earth leakage protection.
That is the reason why SANS has an Amdt 1 recommending that earth leakage be installed on all circuits requiring same, irrespective of the installation date.
In answering GCE's original query, I think it's the right thing to install earth leakage protection and I would use the above recommendation as motivation.
Have a lekker weekend.
GCE (18-May-24)
I wish it was that simple, not all socket outlets have to be on earth earth leakage.
Comments are my opinion, unless regulations are attached to support the comment. This is social media, not a court room.
We are all aware that there are certain instances such as listed in 6.7.5.5 where earth leakage protection is not a requirement
however
those socket outlets in the photo supplied by the poster and on which the query was based, do not fall into that category.
HI
I received an answer from another source with regards to my query and was surprised to hear it has been around since 1993 - I unfortunately do not have SANS codes going back that far-The earliest I have is 2001 and that does have the ELU requirement in.
Looking at the install and knowing who did the original design I can only assume that originally there were Isolators installed and that somewhere along the way when the franchise changed there machines to 3 phase plug tops a contractor went along and changed the isolators to 3 phase sockets without thinking/knowing the regulations.
Present store owner is hopping up and down now as we have said either we fit ELU for which there is no space in the DB , which means a new DB which also has space constraints , or we change sockets back to isolators .
He obviously does not want the expense or the shut down to his kitchen for a couple of hours while we change them
He seems to think his other option will be to get a contractor that will sign it off , which unfortunately could happen as there is always somebody that will prostitute his license without realizing that down the line he could end up in a court case for manslaughter.
Answer received from others
With reference to SANS 10142-1,
6.7.5.2 Industrial type single-phase and three-phase socket-outlets
(including “welding” socket-outlets) shall comply with the requirements of
SANS 60309-1 and SANS 60309-2 and, except as allowed in 6.7.5.5 and
7.10.1.6, shall have earth leakage protection if the circuit is intended to supply
portable or stationary class I appliances.
This part of the code has not changes since 1993 so irrespective when the installation was done, the date of installation has no relevance to it.
This is an issue that's common with non-retrospective regs where it's difficult to establish both when the reg was implimented and when the installation took place. It's time consuming for the contractors to establish this. There ought to be an accessible repository of past regs and ammendments maintained by a reliable source and available to all electricians.
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Not a bad idea - have banged it through to ECA but I dont expect results
Maybe we should start a thread and make it stick but it would need the first paragraph to be editable by some one so that you don't have to page through looking - It could be posted on the tread and then the first post could just keep adding dates .
We have one and others that bounce to mind would be geyser on ELU - The introduction of euro socket. Those question will start and have started already
I really think the older publications should be free, I was not around 30 years ago, well I was a baby, so how could I know the rules then, more so in my learnership the boss was not much older than me and his earliest edition was from 2006 I think or when it was edition 2.
The knowledge from the older lads mostly goes to the grave with them so having the older additions free helps or even a document stating the major changes from each edition.
As said above what to do with geysers and earth leakages? When did earth leakage need to be on geysers, like year and addition.
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