Land Reform in South Africa: Unpacking a very contentious issue

[Justloadit]

Dear Vanash,

I find that your threads on this contentious issue have so much merit, however I think that you may be preaching to the converted in this forum.

The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."

I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.

[tec0]

Dear Vanash,

I find that your threads on this contentious issue have so much merit, however I think that you may be preaching to the converted in this forum.

The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."

I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.

Well we can always start our own printed news letter but funding it is going to take someone with very deep pockets. Regardless of how we feel, the truth is politics cost money and that is why some groups are so strong and others not so much.

[Citizen X]

Dear Vanash,

The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."

I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.

Good afternoon Gac, I'm a nobody in the eyes of the ANCYL or broader society for that matter of fact. I'm actually very pleased with my 'nobody status.'
1. TFSA is the only online community that I’m part of, as such, it is here where I will express my opinions and make whatever relevant business and legal contribution I can make. I commend TFSA in that whilst it is a business discussion and information forum, we really do get to also discuss the various things which affect our lives as South Africans;
2. I no Sigmund Freud, I’m no psychologist. I remain a layman to the filed of medicine. Even with my layman knowledge I still know that some people create imaginary friends. Friends that no one else can see or hear but the afflicted person can see and hear such imaginary friend. The converse should also hold true. If you can have an imaginary friend, then you can also have an imaginary enemy. In my opinion the ANCYL have created this non existence imaginary enemy: the former Apartheid government! Most of the original architects of apartheid are dead and long gone! As apposed to an imaginary enemy, the corruption, nepotism, mal administration, cronyism of the ANC government is not imaginary, it’s actually quite real. We not far from have been officially classified as the most corrupt country in the world;
3. We have a Constitutional democracy, there was no civil war, there was no revolution. When one mentions revolution, one has to use The French revolution and the Russian revolution as benchmark measures. What we did however have was a peaceful transition into a constitutional democracy. When I glance at Julius Malema’s comments to that journalist: ’This is not a media house, this is a revolutionary house,’ I see his ignorance quite clearly! There was no revolution and there is no current revolution!(We know that all his comments to that journalist were insults, I’m still trying to establish whether one of his insults was a sexual insult though i.e. “There’s rubbish in your trousers, what you have in your trousers is rubbish,” We have a liberal society, our law caters for people of all sexual orientations, there is constitutional protection. If he has a secret, it need not be a secret , he merely should reveal his sexuality and feel rest assured that the law won’t discriminate against him..) When I see the ANCYL engaging in vociferous announcement and other such vocal demonstrations, I realize further that some of them actually think that they revolutionaries, when they not! I conclude that some of them actually believe in their minds that they fighting for freedom against a current apartheid government when we already have freedom and there is no apartheid government. I see that many of the ANCYL leaders are not engaging in constructive debate with the leaders of other political parties. I see the ANCYL discuss everything else but matters that affect the youth of South Africa. It’s a no brainer, the issues affecting the youth of South Africa are teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, HIV/Aids, unemployment, lack of money for tertiary study, lack of sufficient sporting equipment in schools, certain schools that are underperforming, poorly equipped schools, programs that promote an awareness of health and healthy eating, awareness campaigns about physical and mental disabilities facing the youth, teen suicide, potential free government sponsored gyms, programs on entrepreneurship, programs on planting ones own vegetables, programs on effective study techniques at schools and universities, free programs for basic computer literacy, taking an active involvement in local teen sport and their needs etc, etc,…
4. Fortunately, it’s just the youth league of the ANC that is basically saying that if whites don’t voluntarily hand over their land, such white’s safety cannot be guaranteed i.e. it’s not the government itself making such a statement. In the unlikely event that the government itself makes such a statement i.e. they can’t protect you from crime and/or they can’t maintain law and order, then you simply faced with a situation where you now forced to plea for international help in the form of the United Nations Security Council.
5. It’s noteworthy that section 1 of the Constitution of 1996 provides: The Republic of South Africa is one, sovereign, democratic state founded on the following values: (a) Human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms. (b) Non-racialism and non-sexism. (c) Supremacy of the constitution and the rule of law. (d) Universal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.”
6. The Government actually has a Constitutional obligation not to discriminate. Section 9(3) and(4) of the Constitution of 1996 is very clear about this when it provides as follows:-“(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth. (4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.”
South Africa is for all South Africans. We should put the past behind us and engage in nation building and the promotion of tolerance and respect for each other. The ANC’s election slogan was, ‘Working together we can do more,’ so why don’t we really just work together and go forward???

[Justloadit]

Could it be that the so called leaders of the ANCYL, because they can not get into the mainstream ANC, are using the ANCYL as a platform to get into the upper echelons of the ANC through their rhetorical statements, and could not be bothered about the youth but for their support?

Secondly, as per your statement 6

6. The Government actually has a Constitutional obligation not to discriminate. Section 9(3) and(4) of the Constitution of 1996 is very clear about this when it provides as follows:-“(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth. (4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.”

The fact that they are pushing, insisting and implying BEE is against this very statement!
I stand my ground when I say that BEE is a crock of bull, and merely placed to help themselves, using this as an excuse to be even more greedy, and at the same time decimating business in South Africa. What we are currently experiencing is testament to this, business is low and is suffering to keep its doors open.

[tec0]

Yet another ANCYL statement, yet another farm murder

AfriForum today appealed to the ANC to urgently intervene to stop the racist statements in its own ranks. The civil rights organisation also announced that it is intensifying its campaign against farm murders. This follows after acting ANCYL leader, Ronald Lamola, yesterday said in Durban that "they" would act as violently as during a war to take farms from white farmers.

Last night, Johan and Gloudine van Rensburg were attacked on their farm near Baltimore in Limpopo. Johan was shot and killed in bed and Gloudine was admitted to hospital in a critical condition.

On 5 June 2012, at a press conference in Centurion, Lamola also referred to the violent expropriation of land. That same day a 29-year old woman, Arina Muller was murdered on their smallholding just outside Centurion.

AfriForum's Deputy CEO, Ernst Roets said that AfriForum Youth had already filed criminal charges against Lamola and that AfriForum would intensify its campaign against farm murders.

"Lamola has blood on his hands. For as long as the ANC watches on while farmers are being killed and hate speech is rampant in its ranks, the ANC, too, has blood on its hands," Roets said. The ANCYL recently also declared that "white capital" was their main enemy.

AfriForum is busy with preparations for national protest action against farm murders. "The public would have to join this campaign in their numbers to force government to declare farm murders a priority crime and to institute specialist units for rural safety. AfriForum will, at the same time, launch an awareness campaign, with its investigating unit, to assist farmers with advice on securing their farms," Roets said.

Statement issued by Ernst Roets, Deputy CEO, AfriForum, June 20 2012

it is as it stands.

[Blurock]

The ANC's "second revolution", the "economic reform" has started...

[Citizen X]

I accept that Apartheid was morally repugnant and that it was a heinous against humanity. It can never ne justified, there is no justification for depriving human beings of fundamental human rights.
1. I accept that past unfairness’s simply must be addressed. I support affirmative action as an economic policy to redress past unfairness, but it should have a predetermined time when it comes to an end. You can’t redress past unfairness forever. I accept that of the so-called ‘non whites,’ the Black people of South Africa were the most marginalised and they were severely oppressed. The list of the subjugation and various human rights violations is exhaustive. I just want to mention 1, education, The Black people of South Africa had the worst primary schools and high school. They were short of everything needed to obtain a reasonably adequate education.They were further intentionally deprived directly or indirectly from University education, many were forced to accept jobs such as farm labourer, domestic employee, factory worker, genitor simply because they had no choice and if only they had access to education, the vast majority of these marginalised people would have been doctors, lawyers, chartered accountants, managers etc.
2. Land reform: I support voluntary land reform. In my definition this can only occur when farmer X comes forward and says, look I’m hanging up my farming boots, I want to try my hand ain a panel beating business. My farm is worth 20 million, I’ll take it in cash please. Thank you! Nice doing business with you!
3. Initially the ANCYL was promoted unlawful land invasions tacitly by virtue of what they said, now the ANC, though vague, is talking about what I understand to be enabling legislation to give effect to existing legislation or soon to be introduced legislation for land reform. So, from my lay person’s understanding, there will come a time where some statute states something along the lines that farmers must voluntarily hand over their land failing which they will be breaking the law!
4. Here’s my valid concern: As at today’s date, we don’t really have complete stability in our country, violent crime of a serious and forcible nature occurs daily, there are violent service delivery protests and in my opinion a view that all white people should be held accountable for what the apartheid regime did! Even during Apartheid, not all Whites supported Apartheid. I reiterate there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the heinous crime against humanity called Apartheid. That said, if you were to hold anyone accountable, then you do what history informs us was the right, just and moral thing to do: You hold the leaders of that regime responsible and you put them on trial, just like Nuremburg. How can you hold the entire white population accountable for what an oppressive regime done?
5. The Apartheid propaganda machine, okay, it was the 70’s, you born a white afrikaaner male, you given the name Kobus Retief. From an early age, in nursery school, in school, high school, university and even the church you informed that you are actually in the middle of a war and that the apartheid government is protecting you. You led to believe that Black people are the enemies. You informed that Black people under the guidance of the former Soviet Union want to engage in a violent overthrow of the government to usher in communism. Emphasis is placed on the notion that communism bans religion and that communists are atheist. You informed that once communism starts in South Africa all your businesses, land, possessions will be taken away from you and given to the state. You have no real outside influence as many books, literature etc are banned. You are given one side of the story. You constantly told that the ‘Black terrorists,’ want to kill you and plant bombs. Again, you believe this propaganda.
6. You forced to join the army;
7. If I were to put myself into the position of ‘Kobus Retief,’ I too would have innocently believed those lies!
8. I cannot speak on behalf of the Afrikaner community, nor am I attempting to do so. I’m merely putting forth my opinion based on the history of the Afrikaners. Whether land reform is lawful(via legislation) or unlawful via land invasion, I can guarantee you, based on the history of the Afrikaners, that you not going to have a situation, where land invaders legal or otherwise goes to Kobus retief’s farm and says, ‘we here to take your farm,’ and Kobus Retief, replies, ‘With pleasure, just give me a few minutes to pack my bags, here’s my keys, can I show you around before I leave?”
9. This will never happen, in my opinion the Afrikaner community will defend their land with their lives!
10. This form of civil unrest is what I’m afraid of because it will affect all of us, it will cause all our lives to become unstable. It will destroy our economy. If the Afrikaner community decide to take up arms and fight, our entire infrastructure will be destroyed! Don’t wake up a sleeping lion who went peacefully!
11. I can tell you this about the former Soviet Union, they were no fools, they were well aware that people under the auspices of communist revolutionaries would approach them for arms, training, asylum and other resources, but the for soviets were well aware that in many cases these people were greedy capitalist who had no intention whatsoever to usher in communism. They were aware that many revolutionaries who approached just said what the soviets wanted to hear i.e. we against rich, greedy capitalist exploiting workers, we against rich greedy capitalist owning large properties and land, we against religion, we believe that the state must own everything. The soviets assisted in any case, because there was a cold war. Now, the soviets in the 80’s were in no military position whatsoever to assist revolutionaries in South Africa to overthrow the Apartheid government for a number of reasons: They had their hands full with Afghanistan, they were aware that if they became directly involved in South Africa militarily , NATO would have responded in kind and the soviets were no match for NATO militarily. All our neighbours were very weak militarily to take on the Apartheid regime. I thank God and Goodness for a good statesman such as Madiba who wanted a peaceful transition, who wanted a South Africa for all races. In my opinion if the combined armed forces of the Blacks, Indians and Coloureds had taken on the Apartheid government militarily i.e. a coup, the Apartheid government would have butchered us! In my opinion, based on what resources other coup initiators and supports had, we had next to nothing. We may have subjectively or sincerely believed that we were in a position to take on the Apartheid military machine in the 80’s, but in my opinion we would have been sincerely wrong. There would have been a blood bath. AGAIN, there can never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever be any justification for the atrocious Apartheid regime. The pint that I’m merely trying to drive home is that the vast majority of White people supported a peaceful transition in a Constitutional democracy even when they had the military means to stop it or prolong it for at least another 40 years. They gave in! They made concessions. You see if I’m the one holding the gun and I have 10 heavily armed men standing behind me and you have no weapons, but you are 200 men, on a firepower basis my point will prevail simply because I’m stronger and I know it! The vast majority of whites embraced a new South Africa, a Constitutional democracy. They embraced it, when all the cards were in their hands!
12. I’m actually only thinking of myself and my family here on the basis that any civil unrest will affect me! Encourage just resolutions, start with state land and then land owned by traditional leaders. Try and get Britain directly involved. If Britain were to agree to give in money a sum of 10% of the current value of each disputed farm to our Government in return for a guarantee that there will be no genocide, then that option should also be explored. A further option is that each current farm owner also give 10% of the value of his land in money to an established fund. It’s not a stretch of the imagination to suggest that if each of the current disputed farms, give a guaranteed 3 jobs per farm Don’t make the very same mistakes the apartheid government made, don’t take peoples land from them Don’t wake up a sleeping lion!!

[Dave A]

there will come a time where some statute states something along the lines that farmers must voluntarily hand over their land failing which they will be breaking the law!

That's real "mad Bob" and Juju stuff.

[Blurock]

That's real "mad Bob" and Juju stuff.

Yes it is, but it is on the ANC's agenda for their "second transformation". The ruling party sits with a dilemma where it knows that the proposed land grabs are wrong, but they have to do something to appease the aspirations of the jobless youth in order to stay in power. I am concerned as I do not think that the current ANC leaders have the leadership fibre to solve this problem.

[vieome]

I think Nandos latest advert sums up the land issue very nicely. Gold star for Nandos advertising gurus they really know how to viral advertise.

[tec0]

That was well worth the watch

Truth is exactly that there is no denying it.

[Citizen X]

“We no know how we and dem a-go work this out, oy!We no know how we and dem a-go work it out. But someone will 'ave to pay for the innocent blood, That they shed every day, Oh, children, mark my word;It's what the Bible say, yeah! yeah!”
JZ’s comment that 40% of our wealth alternatively 40% of our economy is still held or controlled by predominantly White males alludes to such wealth or land been confiscated...
From the vantage point of today’s date, I’m genuinely concerned for our future. The issue in dispute is agricultural land. Our agricultural land does not only include our source of fruits and vegetables but also poultry, eggs, milk and meat.
At present our agricultural outputs as our food source is operating to maximum capacity and with skilled farming hands. Even with the status quo, the cost of food is very high. There was a time when at least fruits and vegetables was affordable. This has now changed.
1. Can you really imagine a situation where this optimal state of agriculture production outputs is disturbed?
2. I can never sincerely thank the apartheid government for giving up power to allow for a constitutional democracy1 I’m not thank full to any apartheid era leader for doing the right thing and allowing the majority of us to have our God given human rights! I do appreciate the fact that they realised how a civil war would have decimated our economy, infrastructure and daily lives. They did not oppose the inevitable namely democracy when they could have. Ego is such that many Indians, Blacks and Coloureds believe that in the mid 80’s we would have been strong enough to over throw the apartheid regime militarily. A honest assessment will tell you otherwise. Now, I was never an anti apartheid activist, I never joined any political party and I’m still by and large non partisan. I did however realise in principal even as a kid that apartheid was wrong. In war crimes or atrocities you hold the leaders of that regime accountable not the citizens. I know that you van pronounce a person ‘not guilty,’ post humously i.e. where an individual was found guilty, sentence to prison and dies in prison but then years later dna evidence emerges that exonerates this person. Similarly, if there’s still some need for justice then Verwoed and PW Botha must be put on trial even though they dead and thereby get some form of justice;
3. Land reform Zimbabwe style will only harm us all as South Africans!
4. All South Africans need to unite for the benefit of our economy, stability and our children; I am South African first and African second. I owe no allegiance to the country India whatsoever!
5. Naturally I can only speak for myself! I most certainly can’t speak for the Afrikaner community. I can however express my opinion, albeit a layman’s opinion, based on my understanding of the resilience and history of the Afrikaner community. In my opinion, they are not going to willingly give up any agricultural land without just compensation. They going to defend their land with their lives and should this very undesirable future state of affairs occur, it will disrupt every South African’s lives for the worst!!!
“How good and how pleasant it would be before God and man, yea-eah! -
To see the unification of all Africans, yeah! -
As it's been said a'ready, let it be done, yeah!Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) for the benefit of your people!
Unite for it's later (Africa unite) than you think!
Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of my children!
Unite for it's later (Africa uniting) than you think!
Africa awaits (Africa unite) its creators!
Africa awaiting (Africa uniting) its Creator!
Africa, you're my (Africa unite) forefather cornerstone!”

“(We don't need no more trouble)
Make love and not war! 'Cause we don't need no trouble.
What we need is love (love)
To guide and protect us on. (on)
If you hope good down from above, (love)
Help the weak if you are strong now. (love)
Lord knows, we don't need no trouble!”

[Blurock]

The ruling party sits with a dilemma where it knows that the proposed land grabs are wrong, but they have to do something to appease the aspirations of the jobless youth in order to stay in power. I am concerned as I do not think that the current ANC leaders have the leadership fibre to solve this problem.

I am glad to say that I was wrong. There actually are some of the ANC executive who realise that land grabs and nationalisation of mines and other assets will not work. The "second transition" was also effectively shot down and renamed.

I am just saddened and shocked that our ineffective president still want to play the populist race card by blaming white males as being in control of the economy. As if that is the cause of poverty in this country.

[Citizen X]

The racial card? Conjure up an enemy that doesn’t even exist! It can’t be said on any justified grounds that the White minority of South Africa are to blame for the government’s failure to deliver on election promises. Though, Karl Marx has been demonized through the former Soviet Union’s interpretation of Marx’s writings central planning and socialism, he’s heart was in the right place. He was against class distinction and never against a specific race. He was against a concept where you have a rich and greedy capitalist who exploits his workers and in doing so makes such workers mere machines, mere parts and components to a production process. Yes, he often labeled capitalists as the ‘killers of the proletariat,’ he didn’t mean it literally. In recent times we had a cold case murder in which an employee was really killed by her employers over a wage dispute. It’s noteworthy that her employers included all races. There are many causes for the French revolution, it’s noteworthy that the petty reasons played a very big role i.e. what the elite were eating, what they were wearing and the lavish lifestyles they lived. When I look at our politicians I can’t help but notice they living beyond extravagance. Luxury cars, mansions, the most expensive hotels and restaurants, designer suits and jewelry and this in a country where so many millions are marginalized1 I have not done any quantitative or qualitative research on how poor people of all races perceive the opulent lifestyles of our leaders, based on the few people from informal settlements that I do come into contact with, I can safely say that they not impressed with our leaders nor are they fooled. Service delivery protests are aimed at the government. At grassroots levels you don’t care about the different spheres of government and how they operate, you do care a lot about the misery you have to endure daily in terms of survival.

[wynn]

“How good and how pleasant it would be before God and man, yea-eah! -
To see the unification of all Africans, yeah! -
As it's been said a'ready, let it be done, yeah!Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) for the benefit of your people!
Unite for it's later (Africa unite) than you think!
Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of my children!
Unite for it's later (Africa uniting) than you think!
Africa awaits (Africa unite) its creators!
Africa awaiting (Africa uniting) its Creator!
Africa, you're my (Africa unite) forefather cornerstone!”

“(We don't need no more trouble)
Make love and not war! 'Cause we don't need no trouble.
What we need is love (love)
To guide and protect us on. (on)
If you hope good down from above, (love)
Help the weak if you are strong now. (love)
Lord knows, we don't need no trouble!”

[/FONT]

Vanesh, you are the expert, give us the lyrics to the song by Bob Marley where he states that 'Peace has come to Zimbabwe' and we can all reflect on his wisdom and wonder what kind of peace has in fact come to Zimbabwe.