Police - How low can they go?

[Frankincense]

@Insulin:" However how did things get so bad so quickly?"

.....eerrhhmm....I know this may be considered...uuhmm...awkward....but...

I remember a time when a certain race group developed armed forces to protect their people, culture, assets and well...suppose the list goes on and on as to what they were "protecting"....they did not allow voting nor free movement and accasionally used force to carry out their ideology....

Things were BAD then?...or "good" in somes views? alot of Police and "people felt "safe"?

If the table were to turn, and the police we see driving around(when they do) are rounding up other groups and forcing them into "areas" and remove thier vote...or just couldn't care about thier rigths anymore....

Could anyone really say this is a new/sudden event?...

are your words "..... I say self-inflicted massacre." showing a deeper understanding?

I feel like i've seen it all before....

........"Our Father who art in Heaven.....

[insulin]

I really do think you need to take a long good look at what is around you. It’s good that you will turn people’s words against them and all that but you are bluffing only yourself. Fact is there are numerous media entities linking criminal activities with the police. Thing is a clever words spin is not going to make everything fine again.

Also I don’t care about the past. I wasn’t a part of it so f#ck it... If people cannot let go and start aiming towards a better tomorrow and just want to sit around commemorating the past then let them. The fact is we need better paid more disciplined police officers that will enforce the laws and protect all South African’s. If that is aiming to high then what hell is the new low then?

[Debbiedle]

I'd like to hear how the "never smack the child" crowd suggest dealing with 12 - 15 year old criminals.

I'm pretty much sorta one of these Dave. If I have smacked my kids in the combined 34 years I've had them, it has been a total of 5 times, each time because I was in a bad mood and not in control of the situation. Not my proudest moments.

How to control the 12 to 15 year old criminals? With lots of time and patience and engagement and full time attention and listening and questioning and thinking and brain storming. The 12 to 17 year old age has been for me the most challenging and time consuming. I spend hours with my children every day. We laugh, cry, discuss nothing sometimes and ways to change the world other times. They often get to laugh at my ignorance and I often get to laugh at theirs. But we are a team. We are always on the same side, whether one messes up or whether he gets the trophy, we discuss it, analyse it and support each other.

If I could I would give every single teenager out there a team to come home to. Most of our kids today are individuals trying very hard to understand the game. It is very very difficult for them. If I had Bill Gates' money I would pump 80% of it into children feeding schemes, parenting skills training, teenage support and teenage entertainment. I firmly believe that this will change the world.

Die hane kon R4000 ook gekos het, dit maak geen verskil nie - dit bly kos vir die kinders.

[insulin]

@Debbiedle

I want to mention that a worker at a local petrol station have one hell of a burn mark on her neck. It is really a bad looking scar. So I asked her what happened. She told me she was attacked by 5 or more children! Kids that wanted her money! They burned her out of sadistic pleasure and to remind her that there will be a next time. Now this is the truth and she still works at the petrol station and she still walks home every night. Now I cannot help but to think that these so called children needs a bit more than a proper disciplinary talk...

[Debbiedle]

At this point I agree with you Insulin, they are right now first having to be removed from society into a place of isolation - where there are decent people able to spend lots of time with them, hear the issues, re educate, show a different way of life. I even believe that they should apologise directly and be put into hours of hard labour to make amends.

I do not for one minute believe that a kid comes out of the womb with evil intent. He learns evil behaviour due to circumstances. NO, he is not always a victim of these circumstances, nor do the circumstances have to be blatantly odd. His interpretation may well be just off kilter and he would need guidance and questions answered to help him past this. If those are not answered, his behaviour goes off kilter. The more desensitised he becomes to off kilter behaviour, the more absurd the behaviour becomes and so on.

My theory simply maintains that these VERY kids could have been stopped from performing this horrid act, had an adult intervened 10 years ago when they smacked their cousins, brothers, sisters etc.

I don't believe that immensely stringent laws and corporal punishment will get kids to buckle under, kids don't do that anymore and a damned good thing it is as well. All it will achieve is for them to become two faced and covert in their operations.

[Dave A]

Hmm. Well you're kinda setting up where I come from on the juvenile criminal. I believe the problem starts with a lack of proper parental discipline at an earlier age as much as anything else.

Now the "never smack children" brigade would have it that physical discipline at any stage is not on. My argument is that some carefully calculated discipline at an early stage will stop the need for more drastic measures later. And by the time we get to teenage criminal stage, serious intervention is required.

[insulin]

I think people over valuate the institutions. Fact is our so called youth institutions have little to no long-term effect on the young criminal. They go in give fake smiles work with the system and when they get out they just become a better criminal. Fact is the criminal mentality is about getting away with stuff! So they will just get better at that. Now they go back to prison “Eventually” And the prison system fails because it is inadequate, overpopulated and gang controlled. So again once the person in question comes out of prison you will have a criminal that will do worst things and will do it better.

Fact is we cannot fix this because we don’t have the social structure to deal with these problems. Right now even schools have become the playground of the criminal. Where will this end? Well it is evident that townships are trying to control the problem with their own version of law and the death penalty. If a person does something that is unacceptable they burn that person alive point blank. However a lot of innocent people are also murdered in this way.

So what do we do? Nothing! The fact is we need proper law and order we need good police systems and good prisons and above all we need punishment that fits the crime… But this must be implemented by government only!

[Debbiedle]

I don't believe (strangely, once again) that it is all doom and gloom. Yes, we have problems, but there are many individuals, groups and organisations fighting and clawing their way to success.

I think if every single person who believes that there is "something wrong" just DOES one thing to fix it in the best way they know how, things will improve. The ripple effect is huge. I've seen it again and again and again.

Two twenty odd year olds met a woman who had taken in some abandoned township kids. 2 years later and this woman has 30 or so kids in her care, the kids (because of the 2 twenty odd year olds) will soon be in their first ever, real home built by the 1, 2 million rands these youngsters raised for them. They have put together sustainable housing, schooling, health and entertainment, good corporate governance and government funding for 30 kids. Given 30 kids and their carers and all who come in contact with them, life and hope. Two people, average Joes like you and I. See their website here http://www.bathandwa.org.za

30 kids who will most probably NOT turn to crime because they have a chance at an average life. We must be more involved. I firmly believe that those of us with energy and breath in us MUST do it.

[insulin]

Yes it is a good bit of motivation and it makes for a good heartfelt read. But it is not the norm... See for something to be sustained it needs to become a normal everyday thing. Right now the government will only do the absolute minimum because they know that the people will pull it together and thus they save money. “Basically it is like fixing the potholes in the road yourself. Sooner or later you end up with all the bills.”Government must not be an active member... Government needs to be the ONLY member when it comes to facilitating and helping these children. That is what I am trying to get at... I know I sound like breathing stone but please understand that no long-term solution can be found in money raising events and charity... These systems need to be sustainable, active and growing! Right now it is only an event...

[Debbiedle]

I also believe in a hand up and not a hand out. So if you see lack of sustainability on something, work with me and let's DO something about it. Tackle a project, any project. I don't think wrapping anything up in pretty paper and presenting a front for a day achieves anything either. We agree on this. The only place we disagree is that I think individuals can and should make a difference on an ongoing basis. It is our God given right and privilege to do so, as well as our responsibility. If we choose not to, we dis-empower ourselves with fear and despair.

Basically I'll be damned, but I will not fall victim to the collective effort of thuggery without giving them a run for their money. I don't believe institutions and government have the ability nor inclination in some cases, to manage the problem at this point. My life will end in a couple a decades time and I have no intention of living it out behind security fencing in an urban jungle wishing I did something more with it. I at least want to know that I put up a good fight, in the best way I knew how.

[Dave A]

I at least want to know that I put up a good fight, in the best way I knew how.

Individuals make a difference, whether they are doing it themselves or working through a collective. The biggest organisations are steered through the collective efforts of individuals.

[insulin]

Perhaps the biggest project you must think about is to how to teach people to care again? In Middelburg a lady approach elderly individuals for charity and end up robbing the elderly and if I am not mistaking someone nearly died because of their willingness to partake in something good. Yes I know these things happen because of bad people and that we must not generalize.

I can also point out to a Pastor that used 20 children as a front to generate wealth in the form of charity. He left the children and took the money and run.

Stories like these discourage people to give. Also in the local supermarkets charities will shamelessly parade the mentally disabled and put it into your face just to get that shock reaction. To put you into a disposition and make you ashamed if you don’t give! I honestly feel so bad when I see this I get tears in my eyes just thinking about it. “It is abuse there are no other words”
Sometimes you don’t have anything to give and those heartless organizers will just stare at you disgusted. I don’t go to the supermarket anymore because of this very reason. Perhaps the points I try to get at is that the methods that are in use today made people care less... or just start to avoid the subject and it is not because they don’t care it is because they were discouraged.

So I think that new improved strategies can be implemented to sustain projects.