Energy Crisis and Daylight saving time!

[tec0]

As far as I know in the old days astronomers and now scientists/NASA know more or less what the earth's rotational speed is. I think they calculate this by observing the position of the sun in the sky during eclipses like a solar eclipse. They have been doing that for well over 2000 years. But the rotational rate isn't a pure constant. Our normal day/night is about 10 to 25 millionths of a second "slower" every year give or take. I know from some Googeling and a TV show that it will take 100 to 140 million years before we will get a 25 hour day. Now I will be long dead before that

[adrianh]

tec0 - you have it by the ar$e hairs of a donkey. Leap seconds are not added because the earth spins faster and faster all the time. Leap seconds are sometimes added because the rotational rate of the earth varies and because our measure of time does not fit perfectly into the rotational rate of the earth. The earth does not rotate through 360 degrees in exactly 24 hours (or 86400 seconds) the rate is every so slightly off at 86400.001798 seconds or 864.0003987 seconds or whatever. This means that they need to compensate for the error in our coarse measurement of time (seconds) by adding a second every now and again because our clocks become out of sync with the exact GMT position of the earth. A second is simply a convenient measure of time because it is very close to the rotational rate of the earth. The only reason atomic clocks were introduced is to ensure that various countries have the same measure that is considered to be one second. Do you realize that atomic clocks also drift and have to be calibrated to one another every so often. Those clocks are affected by all sorts of things like gravity, solar flares, etc.

[Blurock]

I take it you never worked 12 hour shifts before? You get up at about 5:00am or 5:00pm depending if you are on dayshift or nightshift. You have to be at work at round about 6:00am or 6:00pm depending on the shift. So I really don’t see how daylight savings will have any impact whatsoever when it comes to shifts.

I say this because you will have to put in 12 hours of work regardless.

Working an 12 hour or 18 hour day has nothing to do with daylight saving. Daylight saving has to do with when you need to switch the lights on. In Durban it is impossible to sleep after 5am, so you may just as well start working or going to the gym or whatever you do first in the morning. By starting earlier, you can come home earlier and still enjoy the last rays of the setting sun. In winter Durban is dark by 6pm, so you have to switch lights on much earlier than say Cape Town.

[tec0]

Working an 12 hour or 18 hour day has nothing to do with daylight saving. Daylight saving has to do with when you need to switch the lights on. In Durban it is impossible to sleep after 5am, so you may just as well start working or going to the gym or whatever you do first in the morning. By starting earlier, you can come home earlier and still enjoy the last rays of the setting sun. In winter Durban is dark by 6pm, so you have to switch lights on much earlier than say Cape Town.

i get that part but I am just saying if you are locked on a 12 hour shift. you Will wake at X time work Y time and be home at Z time. Also the power load at the factory remains the same. They run 24/7 none stop.

[adrianh]

I can think of one reason why daylight saving could have an effect on demand: If daylight saving is implemented in one county and not in another that is supplied from the same source. The demand curves for the two countries would be one hour out of step which should relieve peak demand somewhat because peak demand is now stepped by an hour across two demand points.

[Dave S]

tec0 - you have it by the ar$e hairs of a donkey. Leap seconds are not added because the earth spins faster and faster all the time. Leap seconds are sometimes added because the rotational rate of the earth varies and because our measure of time does not fit perfectly into the rotational rate of the earth. The earth does not rotate through 360 degrees in exactly 24 hours (or 86400 seconds) the rate is every so slightly off at 86400.001798 seconds or 864.0003987 seconds or whatever. This means that they need to compensate for the error in our coarse measurement of time (seconds) by adding a second every now and again because our clocks become out of sync with the exact GMT position of the earth. A second is simply a convenient measure of time because it is very close to the rotational rate of the earth. The only reason atomic clocks were introduced is to ensure that various countries have the same measure that is considered to be one second. Do you realize that atomic clocks also drift and have to be calibrated to one another every so often. Those clocks are affected by all sorts of things like gravity, solar flares, etc.

Quite right Adrian, the earth's rotation is never constant, in fact, it's rotation speeds up and slows down and any clock, atomic or otherwise, will be out of sync with another by as much as 0.09836363636... seconds at any particular time. Scientists have found that when certain cities "spin" past (in line with) the sun, the rotation speeds up and vice versa when these cities are opposite the sun the rotation speed slows down. It's a phenomenon know as "Axis Displacement", when building materials are taken from, say, China and used to build a massive structure in, say, USA, the balance of earth's surface has been changed, this causes a "wobble" on the rotational axis and this causes the speeding-up and slowing-down in rotation. Axis Displacement can effect the time by about 0.098363636363... seconds. It isn't a proven theory though, (yet).

[adrianh]

It is also said that tides and eath quakes affect the spin rate.

[tec0]

Funny thing is I took those explanations directly out of a scientific study that was done in 2008 this time I know the info was nearest to what I could find in layman terms. So yea... if you are going to correct someone just make sure they are wrong first hey...

That said it doesn’t really matter time is relative and until we can control time it’s not going to matter much. All I am saying is a 25 hour day will not happen in my lifetime as in “25 hours in a day” but working 18 hours or even 20 hours is a norm for most of us so really what is the big deal?

[Dave S]

Funny thing is I took those explanations directly out of a scientific study that was done in 2008 this time I know the info was nearest to what I could find in layman terms. So yea... if you are going to correct someone just make sure they are wrong first hey...

Tec0, don't always go "on the defensive", you are quite right that science predicts the lengthening of the "hours in a day", and a 25-hour day is possible in about 10 to 30 Million years time, but this does consider that all things current remain consistent, however, we all know that consistency is not in nature's vocabulary.

In fact, planning and thinking more than 20-years ahead, may lead to some miscalculations, given our current political climate...

[tec0]

Tec0, don't always go "on the defensive", you are quite right that science predicts the lengthening of the "hours in a day", and a 25-hour day is possible in about 10 to 30 Million years time, but this does consider that all things current remain consistent, however, we all know that consistency is not in nature's vocabulary.

In fact, planning and thinking more than 20-years ahead, may lead to some miscalculations, given our current political climate...

Lately I had no choice, I am sure you saw the other threads and the epic disasters there. I don’t mind being corrected at all but if anything I am not being corrected rather chewed out thus I lost my cool a while ago. Adapting I started using vulgar terminology and just became overly sensitive to any bad language accepting it as an attack outright.

But I will reframe from going on the defensive here as I am rather hoping to avoid another epic 10 pages of being told that I am too stupid to breath.

[HR Solutions]

Also the power load at the factory remains the same

One of the reasons for daylight saving is EXACTLY what it says - Daylight saving ! - That means you have more productive hours in a day with daylight - that means less load on the power plants.

Lately I had no choice, I am sure you saw the other threads and the epic disasters there

Please don't even start tec. Grow up and contribute to a conversation and LISTEN to what other people have to say as well.

[adrianh]

[Dave S]

One of the reasons for daylight saving is EXACTLY what it says - Daylight saving ! - That means you have more productive hours in a day with daylight - that means less load on the power plants.

I'm not so sure, I hear what Tec0 is saying, I started out on the mines and they run at 24/7/365 so there would be no difference between daytime/night-time usage anyway. Also consider that in any 24-hour period the power usage would be the same as all that daylight saving is doing is moving start and end times 1-hour either way.

Personally, I would like daylight savings, simply because I start work at 5:30 but my suppliers only start at 7:30, with savings I could still start at 5:30 and my suppliers could start at 6:30, then if I needed something I could get it an hour earlier...

[Dave S]

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Oh Adrian, I'm offended by that...

[adrianh]

I take offence to your defence of your feeling offended by my defensive argument against those who feel offended by my poster which defends the right to offend!