children and maintenance

[murdock]

i would like to hear your opinion on this matter.

lets say you get married to a women who has children...1 ...2...3 what ever...

this wife and kids live in your house for lets say 10 years...but because you pay all the bills in the house and i mean all the bills in the house...food...bond...insurance...maid...etc etc etc ... all the running cost including school clothes etc....but during this period her ex husband never pays anything towards the kids...and nothing gets done about taking the ex to court for mainenance and so you just keep paying...the kids grow up finish school and...bam...she divorces you and screws you for everything...so you walk away with the clothes on your back...part of the divorce agreement is an amount which you now have to pay for maintenance for your kids which you have while married to the women...just to complicate things your kids are finished school but she chooses to hang onto them...so instead of her making them go out and ad work she chooses to pay for them to sit around at home...becuause in your divorce agrreement she was clever in the way it was drawn up...you only stop paying maintenance when they become self supportive...in other words start working.

my question is what claim do you have against this women and her kids from her previous marrige...and at what point to you stop paying her.

the catch is you have already signed the divorce agreement.

[AndyD]

Divource agreement aside, it's law that you pay maintenance for you children until they're 'self supporting'. I don't think there's an age specified so if your kids aren't self supporting until they're in their 30's then it's your burden for a long time to come.

I'm guessing that as soon as they're no longer in the education system and can claim their own state benefits then you'd be off the hook.

[Phil Cooper]

HOWEVER - both parents must support "in accordance with their means".

So ex-wife must also contribute.

And "self supporting" means that - until they work. BUT - you can go to maintenance court and apply for reduction if they are unreasonable and don't do anything about looking for a job.

[Citizen X]

You raise an interesting topic which has relevance in our South African law today! The relevant legislation includes the Children’s Act 38 of 2005, The Divorce Act 70 of 1979. One must bear in mind that the law is not constant and enduring, entire acts are repealed and replaced with new acts, existing acts are amended in the form of deletion of certain sections or adding of yet others. . I’m reluctant to make a sweeping generalization but the Courts see the position of women today differently than they see women’s roles before 1994. You see men and women are equal in every way. When it comes to maintenance a court can make a maintenance order ruling for the woman to pay the man a certain amount of money every month or vice versa. Legally women must obtain gainful employment, this means that they cannot work for their favorite charity for free and expect their ex husband to maintain them. With equality of the sexes comes equality in parental responsibility and providing for one’s self!
1. The general legal notion is that women can no longer rely on marriage or divorce for their lifestyle. They must go and work and support themselves;
2. On the issue of children both parents, married or unmarried have equal joint custody, parental responsibility and parental accountability for that child that they brought into this world. This applies unless a court by way of court order decides otherwise;
3. I’ll give you an example of something that transpired in my life recently, my friend’s sister is unmarried but she has a child. The child is 2 years old. The mother and father are separated so Miss X stays with her family. I extend kindness to people within reasonable limits. Over a 3 week period, over night, I noticed a situation where the grand father of Miss X, would call me and ask me to assist with baby related activities, i.e. take baby to doctor, take baby and babies mother for prayers for the baby and take babies mother to go buy food for the baby. On one faithful Friday I was literally busy, I was flooded with work, had no time to breathe. The grand father phones me from work and tells me that there is an emergency, the baby hasn’t eaten the whole day and that I must give the baby’s mother a lift to the shops to go and buy the bay food. I was really very busy, but since it was presented to me as an emergency, I left my work and went to pick up the babies mother to go and buy baby food . I don’t have children but I know that if a 2 year baby hasn’t eaten for the entire day, that child will be screaming and crying. When I got there, I found a completely different situation, the baby was at ease and seemed very content. It then occurred to me that this woman whom I don’t even know her name perhaps thought that over night, without my consent, without my knowledge and without my willingness, I would somehow magically become her husband and the father to another man’s child! That’s never going happen!
4. Now, legally, let’s say the baby had no food the entire day, and I could not come by to give the baby’s mother a lift to go and buy the food, the law in the form of the welfare is not going to come knocking on my door! In fact, they wouldn’t even want to talk to me. The law in the form of the welfare would come knocking on only 2 people’s door, namely the mother and the father of that child and no one else. They would have then charged both parents with criminal negligence!
5. A further legal problem in this scenario, is that I cannot intervene in a child’s life without the consent of both parents. This baby’s father could have charged me criminally for involvement in his child’s life! In this scenario, the grand parents and Uncles, Miss X’s brothers and parents somehow erroneously believe that they have rights and a say in this baby’s life. They have none! The law is very, very clear, only the mother and father of that child have parental responsibility, accountability and a say in that child’s life unless a court decides otherwise!

[tec0]

It has been my experience that woman will find a "sucker" and get them to pay for their children and provide for them until they can find someone better and or until the child has grown up and is more "manageable" and less demanding. Also if the child has "health problems" that also becomes the "sucker's" responsibility.

My only recommendation if you fall for this trap don’t get married. It doesn’t matter how hard these women push and they push very hard don’t get married.

the grand parents and Uncles, Miss X’s brothers and parents somehow erroneously believe that they have rights and a say in this baby’s life. They have none!

I got a question Vanash; If the parents leave the children "especially between the ages of 0 to 7 years of age" in the care of the grandparents and expect them "the grandparents" to buy clothing, feed them, take them to the doctor, take them to school, clean them and give them a place to sleep. They have NO RIGHT OR SAY IN THE CHILD'S LIFE? Do I understand this correctly?

If so can said grandparents then SUE the parents for ALL the moneys spend? In this case it is more then R40200! to date.

I really do think it is time for new bloody laws… In my experience modern parents are parasites! And yet the law protects ONLY THEM??? Now that is just BULL $HIT!

[Phil Cooper]

If you don't marry, but have a child, you are as liable for the support as if you had tied the knot.

[tec0]

If you don't marry, but have a child, you are as liable for the support as if you had tied the knot.

Yes you are right. But in this scenario the child is not yours it is someone else's child and if you don’t marry you are not fully responsible for that child. And that is why these women will push for marriage because that will make you responsible. It is a sad reality actually that people will force their responsibility onto others.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Grandparents, both maternal and paternal can be held liable for maintenance. And vice versa

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

A court can always be approached to alter any maintenance agreement.
If there is no maintenance agreement in the divorce decree then you can not approach the court to grant one, it is only done at divorce stage.

[murdock]

here is something to consider...i do beleive there are many males in this situation nowadays..

you marry a women who already has child/children from a previous marrige...boyfriend or one night fling...the father of the child never pays a cent towards the child/children and when you confront the wife about it...it causes huge domestics...she has you hook line and sinker and every now again again reminds you why you are with her...lust for those all nighters where she acts like protestitute on e and steriods...so you stick around...but little do you know as teco pointed out you the sucker not her...as soon as the kids are grown up and out of school...she slaps you with a divorce agreement so tight you cant even change your underpants when you leave the house and takes you for everything you own and some...then sues you for maintenance to keep up he lifestyle gym contract...SUV...the works...and man do those words ring in your head when the lawyer who draw up the marrige contract warned you about...once burnt twice shy...people cant understand why my wife pays for her dinner when we go out.

in fact we have a marrige agreement that no matter what happens she gets what is hers and keep whats mine...and we have a invertory list of every item purchased before and during the marrige...we pay 50 % for everything in the house...be it a picture for the wall or nappies for the kid...our divorce would be so simple...there would be no cutting stuff in half fighting over who owns what...the 35 page invetory list itemises everything right down to the knives and forks in the kitchen...she buys what she want with her money and i do the same...we do held each other out every now and again when things are tight

my question...what claim do you have against the mother and father of the children...you supported for lets say 10 - 15...when you get divorced and she starts trying to take everything...do you have a claim?

and i also hear that once a child reaches 18 you no longer have to pay maintenance...but the child can sue the parents for maintenance until 21 if the child is studying for example...how true is this statement?

[murdock]

Grandparents, both maternal and paternal can be held liable for maintenance. And vice versa

please explain this...are you saying that if my child from my ex which i pay maintenance...falls pregnant and has a baby i am liable for my granchilds maintenance.

and what happens if you instuct the child to have an abortion and they decide to go ahead with the birth...knowing that the child cannot support the baby...the father was a one night...wants nothing to do with the expenses of the child...but is quite happy to hang around to get his his leg over when it suits him...and is interested to see what is happening with the baby...neither are employed...live at home...no transport...too imature to even support herself...mother buy them cigarettes...boozes...pays for the petrol and booze on the night out clubbing...yes this is while she is pregnant...so you wonder who is the irresponsible one...the mother...the daughter or both.

[Citizen X]

I got a question Vanash; If the parents leave the children "especially between the ages of 0 to 7 years of age" in the care of the grandparents and expect them "the grandparents" to buy clothing, feed them, take them to the doctor, take them to school, clean them and give them a place to sleep. They have NO RIGHT OR SAY IN THE CHILD'S LIFE? Do I understand this correctly?

If so can said grandparents then SUE the parents for ALL the moneys spend? In this case it is more then R40200! to date.

Tec0, I understand where you coming from! In principal and from a moral perspective, parents who leave their minor children with the Grand parents, are saving a lot(expenses saved). They don’t have to contend with the cost of a crèche which ranges between R1000 to R4000 per month, they have the added reassurance of the safety and well being of their minor children; recently a 4 year old child at a crèche was raped; the grand parents feed and take care of the minor child so they also vest time and effort in this process. They don’t mind, because they love their grandchildren. From a perspective of fairness, the child’s parents should compensate the grand parents.
1.Legally, the parents of a minor child can delegate parental responsibility to a third party. The mere fact that they entrust someone with their child’s care is sufficient evidence of having delegated parental responsibility to a third party. It is seen as consent. Provided that both parents consent to a third party taking care of a child, it’s perfectly legal. It does not have to be a formal a written agreement but the Childrens Act 38 of 2005 endorses a formal written agreement. The following sections are relevant here:
“22. Parental responsibilities and rights agreements
(1) Subject to subsection (2), the mother of a child or other person who has parental
responsibilities and rights in respect of a child may enter into an agreement providing for the acquisition of such parental responsibilities and rights in respect of the child as are set out in the agreement, with -
(a) the biological father of a child who does not have parental responsibilities and
rights in respect of the child in terms of either section 20 or 21 or by court order; or
(b) any other person having an interest in the care, well-being and development of the
child.
(2) The mother or other person who has parental responsibilities and rights in respect of a child may only confer by agreement upon a person contemplated in subsection (1) those parental responsibilities and rights which she or that other person has in respect of the child at the time of the conclusion of such an agreement.
(3) A parental responsibilities and rights agreement must be in the prescribed format and contain the prescribed particulars.”

“32. Care of child by person not holding parental responsibilities and rights

(1) A person who has no parental responsibilities and rights in respect of a child but who voluntarily cares for the child either indefinitely, temporarily or partially, including a care-giver who otherwise has no parental responsibilities and rights in respect of a child, must, whilst the child is in that person’s care -

(a) safeguard the child’s health, well-being and development; and

(b) protect the child from maltreatment, abuse, neglect, degradation, discrimination,
exploitation, and any other physical, emotional or mental harm or hazards.”

[tec0]

Grandparents, both maternal and paternal can be held liable for maintenance. And vice versa

I was told this but find it difficult to believe. Let’s take a man age 30 his parents has no control over him as he is an adult and yet if he crosses the line and a child is born. Regardless of this fact that he is in control of his own life, his parents can be held liable for maintenance?

Do I understand this correctly?

[murdock]

the way i understand it...if you are burdened with having to look after your grand children because yor kids are too irresponsible to look after their own kids...you could sue the mother/father or both for maintenance.

[Phil Cooper]

You have to pay maintenance until the child commences earning a living