Debt: Legally cancelling a debt over 3 years old

[WG82]

old 'student debt'?

Hi...

I have a question related to (what I assume to be) an old student debt.

Recently I contacted my old university (UKZN) for an unrelated question - I've been trying to get info about my marks there for possible accreditation for further study. The first times I tried to contact them, they passed the buck and never got back to me.

However, after contacting them again, I've received a reply saying I should contact an 031 (Durban) number, because of a 'debtors hold' of some sort.

The thing is, I left the university 10 years ago. Also, I never completed my studies - after one semester I left because I couldn't afford to stay, nor could I get a loan. I paid the fees for this semester in full though, using my savings from work for the previous few years, and a small bursary.

It seems a bit strange that now ten years later I should have to contact them about some nebulous 'debt'. I've asked for an email address as I don't really want to spend too much money on unproductive phone calls (I'm living abroad now), but have received no reply again.

Should I contact this 031 number, or do I risk opening a can of worms? I've heard absolutely nothing about this for the last 10 years, this is the first...and the only thing I can imagine is a library fine or something, although surely they wouldn't keep this on record or try to reclaim it after so long...

Any advice welcome! Thanks.

[Citizen X]

Hi...

I have a question related to (what I assume to be) an old student debt.

Recently I contacted my old university (UKZN) for an unrelated question - I've been trying to get info about my marks there for possible accreditation for further study. The first times I tried to contact them, they passed the buck and never got back to me.

However, after contacting them again, I've received a reply saying I should contact an 031 (Durban) number, because of a 'debtors hold' of some sort.

The thing is, I left the university 10 years ago. Also, I never completed my studies - after one semester I left because I couldn't afford to stay, nor could I get a loan. I paid the fees for this semester in full though, using my savings from work for the previous few years, and a small bursary.

It seems a bit strange that now ten years later I should have to contact them about some nebulous 'debt'. I've asked for an email address as I don't really want to spend too much money on unproductive phone calls (I'm living abroad now), but have received no reply again.

Should I contact this 031 number, or do I risk opening a can of worms? I've heard absolutely nothing about this for the last 10 years, this is the first...and the only thing I can imagine is a library fine or something, although surely they wouldn't keep this on record or try to reclaim it after so long...

Any advice welcome! Thanks.

Extinctive prescription, in particular s 11(d) which states that a debt prescribes after 3 years from the date on which the debt became due and payable will apply provided that this is not a judgement debt, no payments were made for a full 3 years and no acknowledgement of debt has been signed.
The flip side of the coin is that as an educational institution they can prevent you from studying with them unless you pay the debt, they also won't release results etc...I suppose this is one of those debts that you should carefully consider...

[IMHO]

Thanks to Citizen X. Your material really did it for me. What seemed like a mountain to overcome, in the end was really very easy. Luckily I found an old email with all the relevant info, dates and last payment details. I can recommend this procedure to anyone who qualify for the rules of prescription. Much easier than digging up all the old evidence and arguing with them and they just in any case go ahead and summons you in the end. Without Citizen X, I would surely have ended up having to pay this unfair claim.

For those that do not know, I addressed the email with cover letter to both Telkom and MMM Capital. Everywhere it talks about the company, I have put it as Telkom SA Limited / MMM Capital. I found out via their accounts department the email address of the person at Telkom handling this case and addressed it to her as well as the MMM email address and the CEO address Citizen X gave me.

I got a response the same day from Telkom.

Good day,



I’ve sent the details through to my manager, awaiting approval.

Will provide you with feedback

Today I got this mail.

Good day,



We’ve arranged credits, above mentioned account is cleared. And file is closed with MMM Capital.

So yes, it seems as a big insurmountable problem, but it ain't really. I think it took me 30 mins to put it all together and mail it off.

Citizen X, should I insist on all this in writing on a letter head as asked for in the email? I hope the two emails will suffice.

[Citizen X]

Thanks to Citizen X. Your material really did it for me. What seemed like a mountain to overcome, in the end was really very easy. Luckily I found an old email with all the relevant info, dates and last payment details. I can recommend this procedure to anyone who qualify for the rules of prescription. Much easier than digging up all the old evidence and arguing with them and they just in any case go ahead and summons you in the end. Without Citizen X, I would surely have ended up having to pay this unfair claim.

For those that do not know, I addressed the email with cover letter to both Telkom and MMM Capital. Everywhere it talks about the company, I have put it as Telkom SA Limited / MMM Capital. I found out via their accounts department the email address of the person at Telkom handling this case and addressed it to her as well as the MMM email address and the CEO address Citizen X gave me.

I got a response the same day from Telkom.



Today I got this mail.



So yes, it seems as a big insurmountable problem, but it ain't really. I think it took me 30 mins to put it all together and mail it off.

Vanash, should I insist on all this in writing on a letter head as asked for in the email? I hope the two emails will suffice.

A very good evening to you IMHO,

I very glad that you have resolved this matter! What you already have is a sound audit trail confirming that their file is closed. That said, one can never be certain if they have updated their computers, the last thing yyou want is for this very same matter to crop up a couple months down the line. Might I suggest that you request a signed letterhead from them confirming that eiether this debt is prescribed, or that they abandon their claim or that their file is completely closed. Here you simply be honest, you want a signed letterhead for your records. If theyeither refuse or simply ignore the request, then use the affidavit template in the same link provided, go modify it, go to your police station and have it commissioned and retain for your records...

[IMHO]

Thanks, will do.

[WG82]

Extinctive prescription, in particular s 11(d) which states that a debt prescribes after 3 years from the date on which the debt became due and payable will apply provided that this is not a judgement debt, no payments were made for a full 3 years and no acknowledgement of debt has been signed.
The flip side of the coin is that as an educational institution they can prevent you from studying with them unless you pay the debt, they also won't release results etc...I suppose this is one of those debts that you should carefully consider...

Thanks, very useful advice.
I've also been advised by another poster to ask for a "full statement of all invoices raised and payments received". If I did so, would I be at risk of 'acknowledging' the debt and re-opening the case?
According to your advice and what I gather from other debt-related information, I should be able to ignore any debt issue given the time that has passed, and to be able to contest any claims based on your above reasoning.

However, at the moment I know nothing at all about this debt, what it is for or the exact dates involved. My only guess is student fees or related university costs, which of course I contest having left and given ample notice, having de-registered etc.

I'm not sure what a judgement debt is, nor whether this qualifies...as mentioned, I only have the request from the unversity to contact them (received via email). I'd like to make sure things are fine, and am also curious - although of course I don't want to be foolish and make contact only to cause problems for myself.

All things said, is it worth contacting them to clear the matter?

[Citizen X]

Thanks, very useful advice.
I've also been advised by another poster to ask for a "full statement of all invoices raised and payments received". If I did so, would I be at risk of 'acknowledging' the debt and re-opening the case?
According to your advice and what I gather from other debt-related information, I should be able to ignore any debt issue given the time that has passed, and to be able to contest any claims based on your above reasoning.

However, at the moment I know nothing at all about this debt, what it is for or the exact dates involved. My only guess is student fees or related university costs, which of course I contest having left and given ample notice, having de-registered etc.

I'm not sure what a judgement debt is, nor whether this qualifies...as mentioned, I only have the request from the unversity to contact them (received via email). I'd like to make sure things are fine, and am also curious - although of course I don't want to be foolish and make contact only to cause problems for myself.

All things said, is it worth contacting them to clear the matter?

Good afternoon WG82,
1. Yes, the idea of getting statements is sound, for one, it will prove when the last payment was made on the account;
2. Judgment debt: In SA you said to have a judgment debt when a court has granted judgment in favour of the creditor. The open season for judgments appear to be default judgment. From what I can deduce subjectively, certain attorneys(most are ethical) are aware that addresses change, so they sue out summons to the address that you had when you took out the credit card or whatever is applicable. You don’t receive the summons simply because you not there to receive the summons, they apply for default judgment. Judgment is collectable for 30 years, it prescribes in 30 years, a real ugly state of affairs if you the judgment debtor. It will be difficult to speculate as to whether or not you do have a judgment granted against you, so I won’t even go to the realm of speculation!
3. Statements: When you contact them you start by saying I deny liability if this alleged debt, kindly provide the statement of such alleged debt.
4. Remember your point of departure is that you want to claim extinctive prescription and have this debt basically cancelled..

[mariusina]

Mr

Hi,I can get a job becurse of my credit record in 2010 what can I do to take it off

[Citizen X]

Good afternoon Mariusina,

It depends on what type of listing you have. A judgement debt stands for 5 years on credit bureaus before it is expunged, your payment profile for 5 years. Have a look at this link:
Challenging credit bureau listings in a lawful manner

A detailed explanation with a supporting PDF doc can be found at:
http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...a-special-plea

[Darkangelyaya]

Hi Citizen X,
I received a completely faulty MTN cellphone account in Oct 2008 when I returned from Tanzania on business. The amount was in the order of R30 000 (!!!) that they claimed I used on roaming. Needless to say, there was no way on this (slightly green) earth that I would pay that. This was a huge problem for me, as obviously the phone number got disconnected, and at that stage it was my only business number that I had had for many years. The amount of business and income I lost as a result of clients not being able to get a hold of me, is incalculable.
Anyway, my question is this:
MTN has never tried to recoup this alleged debt from me in any way - I have changed my number, and still have a contract with them, so it's not as if they couldn't reach me. They have not gotten a judgment against me either.
Should I forget about the whole thing (which really bugs me, as I'm more than a bit OCD), or should I go ahead and claim prescription anyway, for the sake of restful nights?
Thank you in advance, Kind Sir.

[Citizen X]

A very good evening to you Carina,

1. Your questions are in the public interest! Extinctive prescription is actually there to punish a creditor for not suing out summons within 3 years from the date that the debt became due and payable. To be safe it became due and payable by November 2008. I say this as you made no payments ever since. They could have done a trace alert on you at any time, your contact details are available on the credit bureaus which the either failed or neglected to do. Difficult to say which! They contacting you now, so they have your contact details;
2. The following link has all the useable attachments that you will require for this task
http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...age2?highlight=

3. In practice you download 3 documents from the afore mentioned link 1: Covering letter 2: Prescription claim letter and 3; Affidavit( to prove that you have claimed prescription)
4. The covering letter will find reference in the body of your email, subject : Their reference number, your id number and Extinctive prescription Claim(Modify the covering letter to your individual situation)
5. The prescription claim letter will be your attachment(Modify the prescription claim letter to your individual situation especially creditor name, your details, go through the entire letter! For creditor state the debt collectors name and/or the creditor). The rationale is one can't be cretain if the debt has been sold so you state the creditor as XYX attorneys and/or MTN)
6. Serve it initially via email, after service give it 2 working days before you follow up
7. Please keep us posted

[Darkangelyaya]

Hi Vanash, thanks for the answer.
I think you misunderstood me, it's my peace of mind bothering me - as of this moment, no-one has contacted me for payment; therefore I just wanted to know whether it would be the best route for me to 'kick the hornet's nest'.

[Citizen X]

Hi Vanash, thanks for the answer.
I think you misunderstood me, it's my peace of mind bothering me - as of this moment, no-one has contacted me for payment; therefore I just wanted to know whether it would be the best route for me to 'kick the hornet's nest'.

This is the ulimate problem statement! One doesn't know what an offensive such as an extinctive prescription claim may cause the creditor to do. What I mean by this is: One is now uncertain if this is a judgment debt! If not, you've got nothing to lose. You essentially asking for the legal certainty and closure that extinctive prescription is designed to provide. The decision is far easier to make when demands for payment are being received and you have a valid response to such demands such as debt is prescribed. All things being equal, If I were in your position, I'll still pursue this!
Sometimes an offensive is the best defensive..(It's your call though)

[Darkangelyaya]

This is the ulimate problem statement! One doesn't know what an offensive such as an extinctive prescription claim may cause the creditor to do. What I mean by this is: One is now uncertain if this is a judgment debt! If not, you've got nothing to lose. You essentially asking for the legal certainty and closure that extinctive prescription is designed to provide. The decision is far easier to make when demands for payment are being received and you have a valid response to such demands such as debt is prescribed. All things being equal, If I were in your position, I'll still pursue this!
Sometimes an offensive is the best defensive..(It's your call though)

Surely if it was a judgment debt, it would be listed on the credit bureaus?

[Citizen X]

Surely if it was a judgment debt, it would be listed on the credit bureaus?

In my experience not in all cases! Sometimes a creditor failes for whatever reason to list it. When they do, they don't always list it on all credit bureaus! Some may list it on Transunion ITC, others XDS, other Experian an some all 3. Bear in mind that the listing stands for 5 years after which it is automatically expunged. It's increasingly difficult to tell. This is why you need to weigh things carefully and make the final call!