Stove Isolator position

[ians]

During our discussion yesterday this topic did come up ... and the design methods back in the day when we were apprentices ... why they installed the DB in the kitchen and why so close to the stove etc ... as pointed out ... once again all related to cost and saving money ... the safety of persons may not always be the key factor ... common sense could increase the cost.

As with the COC ... it seems time and money once again took the lead over improved safety ... well it costs money ... who wants to waste money on safety ?

[Derlyn]

If you fit the isolator above the hob ... what happens if there is a fire on the hob? maybe the reg should change to 200 mm and not above the hob ... same with a DB ... why would you allow a DB above a stove even if it is IP 44 rated.

the last time I forgot the popcorn on the stove during one of these long threads ... by the time I got back to the kitchen the flame was already touching the ceiling ... lucky I had a fire bucket full of sand next to the stove .. .from the last time I forgot about the popcorn.

For all the years that I've been a sparky, I've been under the impression that fixed appliances have isolators so that servicemen can isolate the appliance to safely carry out maintenance on same.

In case of emergencies, one isolates the power by means of the main switch above which their is supposed to be an " in case of emergency" sticker.

Never too old to learn.

Derlyn

[ians]

For all the years that I've been a sparky, I've been under the impression that fixed appliances have isolators so that servicemen can isolate the appliance to safely carry out maintenance on same.

In case of emergencies, one isolates the power by means of the main switch above which their is supposed to be an " in case of emergency" sticker.

Never too old to learn.

Derlyn

That's why we need wise old men like you to set the record straight

[ians]

Interesting to see how stove connection have evolved ... the past we would use a piece of copex with 6 mm house wire.

I have connected a stove in years ... today I had a free stand unit and an under counter oven and hob.

Good to see a sticker on the stove for the registered electrician to fill out his details ... the crappy plastic connector mmm not impressed.

I decided to check the instruction manual jut for the hell of it ... another interesting thing was the chain and hook which you must drill into the wall ... I can only assume a stove fallen onto someone in the past.

It indicates that twin+e can used used to connect the stove ... but they do make provision for a saddle to secure the piece of sprag you fit over the twin+e.

I wonder how many people fit the sprag?

Then it got interesting ... the supply for the hob/under counter oven is a 6mm fed from a 40 amp breaker ... do you reduce the wire to 4 mm for the hob and a 4 mm for the oven and fit a 32 amp mcb in the DB ? or do you just connect the 6 mm to the stove and jumper to the hob?

[Dylboy]

If the stove is not fixed then I would consider it to then be a stationary appliance.... then what regulation do we follow as they only have a section for fixed appliances.... just a cat amongst pigeons hahaha

Edit: I forgot about the dedicated cooking section of the book so they do specify a stove so the above is then Null i guess


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[ians]

For all the years that I've been a sparky, I've been under the impression that fixed appliances have isolators so that servicemen can isolate the appliance to safely carry out maintenance on same.

In case of emergencies, one isolates the power by means of the main switch above which their is supposed to be an " in case of emergency" sticker.

Never too old to learn.

Derlyn

5.3.7 Disconnecting devices
An installation shall have disconnecting devices that allow the installation to
be disconnected for maintenance, testing, fault detection or repair. In the case
of circuits or items of equipment, additional disconnecting devices could be
required to allow disconnection for maintenance, testing, fault detection or
repair of such circuits or equipment.

[GCE]

I would like to pull this thread back to the original topic and I should have actually called the thread Stove isolator position in relation to Gas .

I have a problem where the gas regulations have been written without discussing with the electrical industry and that the gas guys in my opinion do not fully understand the regulation that is written .

Going to place some thoughts below

If I look at the regulation and take the first sentence -

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connection


The first sentence refers me to SANS 10108 where the heading is " The classification of hazardous locations and
the selection of equipment for use in such locations"

In the reg it states that LPG is heavier than air - Therefore in my opinion I can place the isolator above the hob as it would be in accordance with SANS 10108 . The rest of the regulation does not come into play - Right or wrong ?

If we really have a think on it the Kitchen cannot be a Hazardous area due to a gas hob otherwise we have all got the majority of our installations wrong.
A socket 200mm away from the hob and then plug a toaster in that can sit on the edge of the hob is surely a bigger issue ( if you listen to the gas guys) than the socket itself.

" Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release."

This statement above from there reg does not state in a vertical or horizontal plain - The written clause always takes preference to the illustration, because if we used the illustration only we should then have all isolators on the right side of the hob and not on the left side of the hob ?
It also states from " Burner or gas release" - We can then measure from the burner itself , not from the edge of the frame - Right or wrong ?

If I am right then I say that in my original pic the isolator is fine as it is more than 200mm away from the burner or point of gas release and it complies to SANS 10108

In my opinion we have been taking the word of the gas installers without actually looking at the regulation.

[ians]

What about the switches on the electric oven which arc ... if gas is heavier than air then the gas will be sitting below the counter where the switches are located in the electric oven ... which will arc as operated ... making a much bigger problem than a plug below the counter which is not operated under normal conditions.

[Derlyn]

Speaking to the gas guys again. The reasoning behind the distance required between the isolator or other electrical components and the burner has nothing to do with inadvertantly igniting any gas.

It has to do with the heat generated latterally by the flame when there is a cooking utencil on the plate. That is also why they recommend that when blanking off an isolator, a metal blanking off plate be used. Not sure if there's anything to this effect in the gas regulations but that is what they verbally related to me. It does make sense.

Derlyn

[ians]

Speaking to the gas guys again. The reasoning behind the distance required between the isolator or other electrical components and the burner has nothing to do with inadvertantly igniting any gas.

It has to do with the heat generated latterally by the flame when there is a cooking utencil on the plate. That is also why they recommend that when blanking off an isolator, a metal blanking off plate be used. Not sure if there's anything to this effect in the gas regulations but that is what they verbally related to me. It does make sense.

Derlyn

So I am good with my pvc blank cover above my gas stove ... because mine has a glass top which folds up against the wall ... and I could fit the pvc socket outlet back into place because of the glass lid.

[Derlyn]

As a matter of interest, the gas guys also have a forum which apparently is only accessible to registered gas installers.

I have been chatting to gas installers who have been discussing exactly what we are discussing and what I am relaying here comes from their forum.

We have, here in our valley, someone who is both a registered electrical contractor as well as a registered gas installer. Whenever I'm in doubt, I consult him. He sees both sides of the story.

Derlyn.

[GCE]

What about the switches on the electric oven which arc ... if gas is heavier than air then the gas will be sitting below the counter where the switches are located in the electric oven ... which will arc as operated ... making a much bigger problem than a plug below the counter which is not operated under normal conditions.

Correct , which is why I am even more convinced that we cannot classify the " oven combination " as a hazardous area and since we don't classify as such we can use normal electrical equipment within the " safety distances " as per the requirements on the gas regulations clause 9 .
Besides the ignitor that operates from mains power 5mm from the burner and point of gas release - They contradict themselves


The more I look at it the more I feel that we can tell the gas guys that the regulations does not apply.

Not sure what I am missing .

Derlyn says because the pvc plate can melt - They do not refer to heat , just burner and potential point of gas release and the 200mm distance if you don't comply to SANS 10108 rated equipment

[Derlyn]

The gas guys also say it's perfectly in order to plug in a gas stove. Who am I to argue.

I will refrain from commenting any further.

Don't want to make anymore "incorrect" statements.

Derlyn.

[GCE]

The gas guys also say it's perfectly in order to plug in a gas stove. Who am I to argue.

I will refrain from commenting any further.

Don't want to make anymore "incorrect" statements.

Derlyn.

Hi

The statement you got from the gas guy just shows how the different gas installers are interpreting the regulations to suit themselves or do not fully understand what they are reading and alternatively it could be that somebody has told them don't allow electrical equipment behind the stove or within 200mm from the edge and so that is what they are preaching without reading it themselves

[ians]

The gas guys also say it's perfectly in order to plug in a gas stove. Who am I to argue.

I will refrain from commenting any further.

Don't want to make anymore "incorrect" statements.

Derlyn.

Lets not go down that route ... we are here to share our information and discuss topics ... it is important for people to share their thoughts ... right or wrong.

A good example is your comment about the isolators ... sometimes I get so wound up in my thought process and I forget the basics.