Downlight connections

[AndyD]

In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...

Yeah, it's standard practice everywhere I've been in SA. Given the regs defer to the manufacturers instructions, if a round box wasn't marked specifically to forbid internal connections and there wasn't a manufacturers spec sheet available on site would you fail the installation for a CoC?

[JustJohann]

Originally from Cape town and I can tell you its as common as anything. Also here in Bloemfontein where I am currently.

[GCE]

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are not connection boxes or terminal boxes. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc. ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Peace out .. Derek

Hi

I have searched the regulations and the theory over no joints in a round box as been bugging us in the workshop.

I was with an AIA this afternoon and posed the question on joints in a round box or drawbox - His statement was " that is what a drawbox is for " .

I am now confident that we can continue using round boxes as joint boxes.

[Derlyn]

Hi GCE
It seems as if the left hand of the AIA doesn't know what the right hand is saying or doing .

It was the same AIA that informed a senior member of the ECA in our valley that connections are not allowed in an
Inspection box or drawbox.

It had nothing to do with the regulations, but manufacturer's specifications apparently. He might have been wrong.

I have stopped using round boxes for connections and use connection boxes or terminal boxes instead. ( just in case )

Peace out .. Derek

[ians]

Hi GCE
It seems as if the left hand of the AIA doesn't know what the right hand is saying or doing .

It was the same AIA that informed a senior member of the ECA in our valley that connections are not allowed in an
Inspection box or drawbox.

It had nothing to do with the regulations, but manufacturer's specifications apparently. He might have been wrong.

I have stopped using round boxes for connections and use connection boxes or terminal boxes instead. ( just in case )

Peace out .. Derek

Every single electrical installations would be illegal in KZN if this was true ... from what I remember back in the day when i bothered with rules and regs ... you were not allowed to make joints in TEEs and elbows ... they had to be done in junction (round boxes) boxes.

Every single light fitting in in office flats and the like with junction boxes would have to be chopped out and replaced ... I cant see that happening.

[Derlyn]

Ian

Nobody said that all round boxes with connections in them are illegal and must be removed at once as you are suggesting.

It's the same as with plugs.
All installations with old plugs are not all of a sudden illegal and all of them having to be removed.

It's what one refers to as a phased approach.

That is what I am doing. Not ripping out all round boxes I come across with connections in them ( that would be too extreme ) but at the same time not adding anymore.

Peace out ... Derek

[GCE]

It makes no sense that a round box cannot be a joint box and the statement " manufacturers spec " when the same manufacturer makes a 6 Amp skirting socket to fit to the round box - There is a joint happening

I had a Chat to the East London ECA and the AIA that made the statement is no longer practicing as such - We came to the same conclusion that round boxes used in the correct application are fine ( not in weather or 10 pieces of T&E jointed that the lid cant close ).

As said previously - AIA says no problem now and I have never known Mark to go back on what he says

[Derlyn]

I had a Chat to the East London ECA and the AIA that made the statement is no longer practicing as such

Thanks GCE

By your quoted response it seems as if an AIA actually did make that statement.
Like I said, maybe they made a mistake.

That's why this forum is so lekker.
Uncertainty over an issue usually results in certainty.

Peace out ... Derek

[Tang]

Hi Sean

It's not just a personal preference.

There are a number of factors to take into account. ie. SANS 10142-1 , The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are not connection boxes or terminal boxes. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc. ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Peace out .. Derek

I suspect the space in tee pieces and elbows were the main issue.

Sent from my Beam using Tapatalk

[ians]

I suspect the space in tee pieces and elbows were the main issue.

Sent from my Beam using Tapatalk

Tees and elbows where what we use to refer to as a draw box ... what we used when doing tube and wiring with "house wire" to feed the fish tape or pull and feed the wiring.

Round boxes where refered to as junction boxes ... however very sledom used as "junction boxes" other than to store the wiring for the light terminations.

Here is something to think about ... back in the old days we very seldom use the junction boxes to join wires ...

for example ... a single lever switch had 3 wires ... 2 only if it was the last switch in the circuit ... the reason we didnt cut corners ... the wires ran from the DB to the first switch then from the first switch to the second switch ... the neutral was pulled from the DB to the first light point ... then to the next.

Over time we started using the boxes to save time and money ... so we would fit a 3 way cut the wire and use a skrewit to join the wires ... saving time and money ... resulting in cheaper quotes ... which results in more work ... with the lack of suitably qualified inspectors ... or ones who would take the time to climb in the roof and inspect the "junction boxes" it got easier and easier to cut corner and save money ... I recall the council inspector arriving on a commercial site ... collected his "boxes" ... walked around with his asssitant ... had a look see and left with a smile.

So this topic is actually rather interesting ... at the end of the day ... over time we just started using the "junction box" to join wires is it actually legal ... we would need to go back in time and refer to the old regs when PVC wiring originated.

[Dave A]

So this topic is actually rather interesting ... at the end of the day ... over time we just started using the "junction box" to join wires is it actually legal ... we would need to go back in time and refer to the old regs when PVC wiring originated.

The introduction of surfix wiring may have had something to do with it.

[BEVIN]

Please show me a pic of a legal junction box and a termination box that I can use please.

[ians]

https://hager.com/uk/products/h/j804-20-amp-4-terminals-lighting-

[ians]

https://www.futurelight.co.za/products/gu10-connector?variant=494415325

[ians]

Now that I have ed 3 in PDF ... it makes life so much easier when searching for stuff.


6.3.7.2 Joints and terminations shall not

b) be made in any connector, bend, elbow or tee-piece of a conduit,



by the way ... if I need a quick solution ... I do carry a few of the cheapie conduit joints ... I have found a re-entry gel which prevent the ingress of water

However I have found a better solution "not one of my favourite companies" ... MCE have a range of wire connectors/gel joint kits and little black terminal junction boxes (IP68) 2 pole -6 pole (pg 45 and 49 of the catalog) ... I buy these things by the dozen and they save a lot of time ... and hopefully SANS approved ... so I wont get word hiding about my pipe joint