Downlight connections

[Derlyn]

Hi Sean

It's not just a personal preference.

There are a number of factors to take into account. ie. SANS 10142-1 , The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are not connection boxes or terminal boxes. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc. ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Peace out .. Derek

[ians]

It does beg the question of why not just purchase floodlights with a decent length flex in the first place.

I'm not sure if you're 100% serious about this or whether you're playing devils advocate, I'm kinda hoping it's the latter.

Yes, you're saving money but I guess the issue is whether it's worth the cost.....You can buy a miniature in-line resin joint for R65.00 to extend the flex and an aluminium 90x36x30mm IP65 surface mount enclosure for R80.00 (probably half that price for a PVC or ABS enclosure). A couple of glands at maybe R2.00 each and 3 Wago connectors at R4.00 each so your total saving is about R160- minus whatever the cost is of you home made joint. If you'd bought a floodlight with a decent length flex in the first place your home made enclosure would have saved you less than a hundred bucks.

**EDIT** I just priced a plastic 100x100x50mm IP56 enclosure at R22.50 so that's under 40 bucks total with Wago's and glands.

Compliance problems I see are;

• That you're using items outside of the manufacturers specs and recommendations (see 6.3.7.1 below).
• You're jointing a flex cable with ferrules which isn't using 'cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits' (see 6.3.7.1 below).
• Light fittings fall under the fixed appliance regs apart from where they're specifically exempted and their input terminations require a 'suitable enclosure' (6.16.1.9 below) with a further reference to 6.6.4 which in turn says they must comply with distribution boards that form part of a fixed electrical installation and shall comply with SANS 1473-1.

6.3.7.1 Joints and terminations of cables, cores and conductors shall be
[B]made in accordance with manufacturers' instructions or the appropriate
part of SANS 10198[/B] (SABS 0198). Flexible cables shall only be joined
using cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits. All joints shall be
accessible, protected against strain, and protected in accordance with
5.1.1.

6.16.1.9 Unless part of the appliance or self contained in their own
enclosure, control components of fixed appliances that form part of the fixed
installation, including their input terminations and associated protective
switchgear that are not mounted in the distribution board, shall be
incorporated in a suitable enclosure(s) that comply with the requirements of
6.6.1 and 6.6.4. Enclosure(s) shall be
a) non-flammable,
b) located as near to the appliance(s) as is practicable,
c) permanently installed,
d) such that they cannot be opened without the use of a tool, and
e) readily accessible.

6.6.4 Distribution boards built or modified on site with a short-circuit
rating up to and including 10 kA 
6.6.4.1 General
A distribution board shall comply with 6.6.1, 6.6.2, 6.6.4.2 and 6.6.4.3.

I get it that you want to save money and we could argue all day regarding grey areas in the regs and how maybe....possibly..... something could be compliant because there's no reg explicitly forbidding it. Yes the regs are flawed, yes the regs don't keep pace with the rapidly changing technologies, hell, they wouldn't be updating them every few months if they weren't but I prefer to look at the regs as an absolute minimum standard everyone should be working to, not as a gold standard we should be aspiring to. I think it's an easy trap to fall into where you get into the mindset of butting heads or fighting the regs because a method you've used, although unorthadox, could well be done safely and reliably in some scenarios or maybe you can convince yourself a regulation seems irrelevant to your particular job at hand. It's easy to become disillusioned and see the regs as the enemy with their lack of enforcement and when you're losing quotes to chancers who are undercutting you and doing sub-standard work with impunity.

Honestly, if I saw that joint and it was installed by a DIY'er in his own home I'd smile and quietly marvel at his ingenuity, I'd be happy that he did a half decent, reasonably safe job with the knowledge and materials he at hand. I'd probably tell him I appreciate his efforts but can't I just put a proper enclosure with some compliant connectors whilst I'm there. If I saw that joint and it had been installed by a professional electrician I'd be disappointed. I'd question why on earth he'd want to take such a chance to save a hundred bucks. I'd question his integrity and I'd probably be wondering if he actually was a qualified sparky or whether he was a chancer.

Common sense would say to me that ferruling a trailing cable to the supply wiring is a bad idea when obviously ferrules are a permanent joint that can't be easily disconnected for future testing.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth invalidating the warranty of the item you're installing by not following manufacturers instructions and recommendations.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth taking on the legal liablity if there's a failure in future no matter how slim the chance. At best you you might be forced to return to remedy the installation, at worse you could end up in a court of law.

The first 10 I purchased for R120 with a long cable (Pioled) ... installed Y boxes under the eave and everyone is happy ... then ARB ran a special @ R65 for (RAdient) so i thought i would save a few cents ...but did I save a few bob ...at this point i did because i used my "brilliant" cost saving idea ... job is complete and working ... however as the "discussion" continues ... it might cost me a few more bob resolving the problem ... in fact it might be cheaper to dump the silly Radiant lights and just get another 10 Pioled ones with longer cables ... all the connections are under the eave out of the rain.

[ians]

Hi Sean

It's not just a personal preference.

There are a number of factors to take into account. ie. SANS 10142-1 , The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are not connection boxes or terminal boxes. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc. ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Peace out .. Derek

This is why it is so important to have these dicussions ... I am also a little confused with the round box comments ... I had an idea that my pipe joint might be an issue ...but this has got me really confused ... if I understand this statement ...you shouldnt be using the round boxes in the roof space to connect your lights ???

This comment also makes my entire security light project illegal ... I have twin+e running from light to light ... with a Y box fitted ... the twin+e in and out with and the security light connected using wago 221 ... if I understand these statements ... I am not allowed to terminate the security light in the Y box ???

[ians]

I'm back again now with some more time.

I think 6.14.3.6 applies.

The connections between circuit conductors and luminaire
conductors shall
a) allow enough slack immediately behind the base of the luminaire for
easy handling, and
b)[B] in the case of a pre-wired luminaire, be made using a connector.[/B]

Ferrules are not 'connectors'. Again there's no definition given but elsewhere references to connectors also refer to screw type connector blocks and push-in wire connectors.

One thing to note ... the pipe joint is not the connection point ... it is merly being used to extend the cable ... the connection point is at the Y box ( which also seems to be incorrect if I read the statements here)

[Derlyn]

Sorry if this sounds like a doff question.
Can someone explain the difference between a spotlight with a 20cm flex lead or one with a 1 meter lead.
They both need to be joined.
Does the length of the lead determine the method used to make the connection ?

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

Sorry if this sounds like a doff question.
Can someone explain the difference between a spotlight with a 20cm flex lead or one with a 1 meter lead.
They both need to be joined.
Does the length of the lead determine the method used to make the connection ?

Peace out ... Derek

This is what the discussion is all about ... dont feel bad ... according to what i am reading in this thread ... most LED lighting connection being done since LED were introduced are illegally connected.

How to connect a flood light with a short cable to the electrical installation.

Generally a light would have a termination point ... for example a batton holder would have a a screw terminal on the light .. you would run your house wire or twin+e to the light and connect it at the light fitting using the connector provided in the light fitting ... same with an old 4 ft fitting for example ..there were connectors made available inside the fitting pre connected to earth (the metal part) ... old floodlights had terminals/connectors inside the light fitting ... so no "junction box" was required.

However with LED lighting ... manufacturers have made it a little more difficult (cost cutting ...smaller enclosures etc) ...as in the case with LED flood lights ... and LEd 2/4/5 ft fittings ... the connection point in the fitting is no longer available ... hence this thread ... it is no longer a simple connect the twin +e or house wire inside the fitting.

I dont know when the SABS rules changed making it no longer the manufacturers responsibility to provide a connection point ... or if ther ever was one ???

You will notice that even the 5 ft LED fitting ...now has a short tail making it literally impossible to reach the conduit box ... which we have established is not a junction box and can therefore not be used to connect the short tail ... which means you have to provide a "junction box" to connect the tail ...using "connectors" ... then run a cable from the round conduit box ... were you can join the wires to link up parts of the installation.

According to what i am reading here ... even if the cable is long to reach a conduit box ... you cannot connect the fitting inside the conduit box ... a separate "junction box" with connectors must be used.

The bottom line the LED fitting suppliers have just made it the electricians responsibility to supply a junction box to terminate their fitting ... a clever cost cutting idea for them a headache for all electricians.

If you were smart and had a contact in a plastic injection moulding comapany ... you would be manufacturing a small "junction box" with terminals to be used for this application.

I feel sorry for all those fellas who have signed off COC's with connections in conduit boxes ...eeeeish.

back to my pipe joint ... its not the junction box ... merely a means to extend the tail to the junction box ( it is illegal ...because it is not disgned for the purpse)... no more using round conduit boxes for twin+E ... you gonna have to fit a junction box with connectors even if the tail is long enough.

Leecat ... i hope you are learning something and will continue to add value to these discussions.

[Dave A]

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are not connection boxes or terminal boxes. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc. ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...

[Trevor Varner]

Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...

Could someone please show me where round boxes are not allowed to have terminations done in them, I can understand joints not allowed in T pieces etc.
Thank you

[Derlyn]

This thread was started by Just Johann requesting some input regarding the connecting of down lights.
For me there has always been uncertainty as to the correct way to do it.

Here in our valley it is drummed into our heads not to use strip connectors, but to ferrule and crimp and insolate with heatshrink.
Someone has mentioned that ferrules are not connectors. Now I'm super confused. Ferrules are manufactured and sold for the sole purpose of efficiently connecting one conductor to another, yet it is said that they are not connectors. What should we use ferrules for if not for connecting conductors ?

Be that as it may, the thread changed direction with Ian's brilliant suggestion and we all wondered off course. Sorry about that Just Johan.

Back to downlights and connecting them.

Even the downlights are evolving to having pig tails like in Johan's photo's. Up to now I have been crimping with ferrules as recommended by the main indunas in our area.
From different viewpoints in this thread it would seem as if this is not the recommended method.

Took a bit of time out of my hectic schedule and checked out all the wholesalers here to find manufacturer's solutions to both connecting downlights and spotlights.

This is what I came up with.



On the right is a connection box that is not weatherproof and is ideal for downlights. It's called a RIP BOX available from ARB for R29.

On the left is an in line connector. Totally weatherproof and ideal for spotlights. Also available from ARB for R45.

Hope this helps,

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Io_AyRDHc&ab_channel=POUSEaroundtheHOUSE

[Dave A]

Could someone please show me where round boxes are not allowed to have terminations done in them, I can understand joints not allowed in T pieces etc.

I would love some clarity on that too.

On the right is a connection box that is not weatherproof and is ideal for downlights. It's called a RIP BOX available from ARB for R29.

It's great to see that the RIP Box has come down to a far more competitive price from when it was first launched.

[JustJohann]

Derlyn it started out as connection to down lighters but the rest is not really wondering of the point as it is about how we make connections to be safe. Back to the point of the round box. Yes most light fittings have a connector on them. But what if its one of those lights that just have the piece of flex with the holder on the end ? Also what do you do if you have more than 1 neutral as most holders cant take 2 as they are barely big enough for one ? Not being funny but using a round box to make connections in then to me seems perfectly fine as it ticks all the boxes. The cables are secured ( if you use glands )no live conductors can be touched with the standard test finger with out removing a cover with a tool ( thats if you put on a cover) and can be serviced if it is in a place where you can reach it and you use block connectors to join the cables. To make it maintenance free if it is in a place where it cant be reached use ferrules and heat shrink. I would personally not just twist the wires together and tape them or use a screwit. I have seen more screwits come loose with out much effort than I have seen correctly selected block connectors melt. Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen joints in round boxes in houses with black metal tubing,black plastic tubing,white plastic tubing. The little round box has been there long before any of the other fancy junction boxes we have today has come on the market and I think thats why it has been used for joining cables for as long as most electricians can remember. The are also to me much sturdier and hold the cables beter. I will even admit that I have used them a few times to even make joints thats buried under the ground. I stuffed them full of that black putty compound. I know of at least one thats probably 18 years old and still in the ground and they are still working away with no problems.


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[AndyD]

Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...

How did the toolbox talk go?

[Dave A]

How did the toolbox talk go?

In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...

[ians]

In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...

no surprise

Personally i have never come across a building in Durban where round conduit boxes are not being used as connection/junction boxes for lights ... 5 amp socket outlets ... dome lids with extractor fans ... you name it ... it is being used as a junction box for terminating cables

In fact while collecting equipment at AC/DC ... all the wago demo units display are using round conduit boxes as junction boxes.