Downlight connections

[Derlyn]

6.3.7.2 b is a good place to start. There are others.....

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Complies with 6.3.7.2 b. The regulation does not mention conduit.
Will keep on looking for the others.

This method is more compliant than using a through box with lid and screws.

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

This is the kinda topic i enjoy discussing...

Lets put the regs aside and look at it from a practical angle.

What makes it illegal ... just because it is in a piece of pipe ... I want to know what makes using this method dangerous?

Please explain to me why the regulations states you cannot make joints in a elbow ... I know the answer ... but lets see if everyone else understands why these rules where made and how long ago they were make ... this is 20 th century very few people still install conduit and wiring.

[ians]

Complies with 6.3.7.2 b. The regulation does not mention conduit.
Will keep on looking for the others.

This method is more compliant than using a through box with lid and screws.

Peace out ... Derek

the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces

or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved.

I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe

Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.

[Leecatt]

the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces

or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved.

I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe

Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.

Watching with interest.

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[Leecatt]

the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces

or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved.

I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe

Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.

I will start of by advising that THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS section 5 DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION makes for an interesting read.

[Derlyn]

the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces

or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved.

I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe

Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.

I'm with you on this one Ian. Most of the installations that I have seen ( talking about flood lights ) the guys use a through box with 2 glands and a lid with screws. ( Not acceptable by AIA ) Same with downlights.

The AIA states that 20 or 25mm through boxes are draw boxes and no connections are allowed in a draw box, so all those spotlights and down lights connected this way are not acceptable. That big tray we use in the ceiling that we refer to as a bonding tray is also a draw box, so no connections allowed in same. Have you ever come across a bonding tray in an attic without any connections in it ? I cannot remember ever seeing one.

Anyway, once again, thanks for the tip. I have bounced it off some of the ECA guys here and they reckon it ticks all the blocks. 1. weatherproof 2. no access to live parts without the use of a tool or key. 3. crimped connections with heatshrink ( mf joint ) no need for access to inspect.

Peace out .. Derek

[ians]

I will start of by advising that THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS section 5 DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION makes for an interesting read.

I was hoping we could try using a bit of "common sense" for a change ... I do agree with doing things "by the book" ... but sometimes its good to take off the blinkers and expand your view.

[Leecatt]

Talking about by the book. Your encouraging others to make up their own equipment...

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[Leecatt]

Thank you

Talking about by the book. Your encouraging others to make up their own equipment...

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I am the only electrician in my company and as such have no electricians to discuss matters with and gain valuable experience.
I first joined this forum to gather some knowledge from the members here and I did, to an extent.
However, it seems that I have come to the end off the useful part of that journey.
Some of the information I am now harvesting does not appear to have any benefit to me
I am not a policeman and it is not my place to guide anyone nor do I want it to be.
There are some very clever people on this forum and I thank you for your contributions to my knowledge base.

[SeanM]

Morning All

The comment about no connections in a round box?

Where in the regulations does it not allow this?

I learn something everyday and always refer back to the regs to satisfy myself that it is not just a personal preference.

[ians]

I would encourage people to have open discussions on forums and groups ... I certainly dont take info i read on the internet as the final decision ... i use it merely as a source to see things from a different perspective.

I am also a one man operation ... however i certainly dont rely on info shared of social media and dont waste my time going into detail with attached rules and regs ... my cutomers pay me a lot of money to generate reports ... people should be grategful that there are people on this forum who do take time out of their busy schedule to post responses.

I encourage people to use a little comon sense and open your mind while browsing the internet ... and dont take anything personally.

So back to the brilliant idea ... still no taker on why this is dangerous?

You can acess it without the use of a tool ?

the type of material used cannot withstand and arc flash ... ( pipe should be SABS rated) ?

[AndyD]

It does beg the question of why not just purchase floodlights with a decent length flex in the first place.

I'm not sure if you're 100% serious about this or whether you're playing devils advocate, I'm kinda hoping it's the latter.

Yes, you're saving money but I guess the issue is whether it's worth the cost.....You can buy a miniature in-line resin joint for R65.00 to extend the flex and an aluminium 90x36x30mm IP65 surface mount enclosure for R80.00 (probably half that price for a PVC or ABS enclosure). A couple of glands at maybe R2.00 each and 3 Wago connectors at R4.00 each so your total saving is about R160- minus whatever the cost is of you home made joint. If you'd bought a floodlight with a decent length flex in the first place your home made enclosure would have saved you less than a hundred bucks.

**EDIT** I just priced a plastic 100x100x50mm IP56 enclosure at R22.50 so that's under 40 bucks total with Wago's and glands.

Compliance problems I see are;

• That you're using items outside of the manufacturers specs and recommendations (see 6.3.7.1 below).
• You're jointing a flex cable with ferrules which isn't using 'cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits' (see 6.3.7.1 below).
• Light fittings fall under the fixed appliance regs apart from where they're specifically exempted and their input terminations require a 'suitable enclosure' (6.16.1.9 below) with a further reference to 6.6.4 which in turn says they must comply with distribution boards that form part of a fixed electrical installation and shall comply with SANS 1473-1.

6.3.7.1 Joints and terminations of cables, cores and conductors shall be
[B]made in accordance with manufacturers' instructions or the appropriate
part of SANS 10198[/B] (SABS 0198). Flexible cables shall only be joined
using cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits. All joints shall be
accessible, protected against strain, and protected in accordance with
5.1.1.

6.16.1.9 Unless part of the appliance or self contained in their own
enclosure, control components of fixed appliances that form part of the fixed
installation, including their input terminations and associated protective
switchgear that are not mounted in the distribution board, shall be
incorporated in a suitable enclosure(s) that comply with the requirements of
6.6.1 and 6.6.4. Enclosure(s) shall be
a) non-flammable,
b) located as near to the appliance(s) as is practicable,
c) permanently installed,
d) such that they cannot be opened without the use of a tool, and
e) readily accessible.

6.6.4 Distribution boards built or modified on site with a short-circuit
rating up to and including 10 kA 
6.6.4.1 General
A distribution board shall comply with 6.6.1, 6.6.2, 6.6.4.2 and 6.6.4.3.

I get it that you want to save money and we could argue all day regarding grey areas in the regs and how maybe....possibly..... something could be compliant because there's no reg explicitly forbidding it. Yes the regs are flawed, yes the regs don't keep pace with the rapidly changing technologies, hell, they wouldn't be updating them every few months if they weren't but I prefer to look at the regs as an absolute minimum standard everyone should be working to, not as a gold standard we should be aspiring to. I think it's an easy trap to fall into where you get into the mindset of butting heads or fighting the regs because a method you've used, although unorthadox, could well be done safely and reliably in some scenarios or maybe you can convince yourself a regulation seems irrelevant to your particular job at hand. It's easy to become disillusioned and see the regs as the enemy with their lack of enforcement and when you're losing quotes to chancers who are undercutting you and doing sub-standard work with impunity.

Honestly, if I saw that joint and it was installed by a DIY'er in his own home I'd smile and quietly marvel at his ingenuity, I'd be happy that he did a half decent, reasonably safe job with the knowledge and materials he at hand. I'd probably tell him I appreciate his efforts but can't I just put a proper enclosure with some compliant connectors whilst I'm there. If I saw that joint and it had been installed by a professional electrician I'd be disappointed. I'd question why on earth he'd want to take such a chance to save a hundred bucks. I'd question his integrity and I'd probably be wondering if he actually was a qualified sparky or whether he was a chancer.

Common sense would say to me that ferruling a trailing cable to the supply wiring is a bad idea when obviously ferrules are a permanent joint that can't be easily disconnected for future testing.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth invalidating the warranty of the item you're installing by not following manufacturers instructions and recommendations.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth taking on the legal liablity if there's a failure in future no matter how slim the chance. At best you you might be forced to return to remedy the installation, at worse you could end up in a court of law.

[Trevor Varner]

Hi I'm new on the forum, trying to follow the thread.
6.6.1 and 6.6.4 are referring to distribution boards in my understanding and
not enclosures. Enclosures in 3.35 is a part that provides protection of equipment against certain external
influences and in any direction, protection against direct contact.
There is no definition for cable coupler and I haven't heard heard of any manufacturers jointing kits that should be used with a branded light fitting

[JustJohann]

No joints in a round box ? First I have ever heard that. Learned that that or a 2x4 surface box with a blank plate or a 4x4 surface box with a blank plate is the correct way of joining cables in roof spaces or where it is accessible.Been doing it for 18years and have seen many others exactly like it in different place from different people. If you say its not allowed then what do you do to install a light fitting in a older installation where there is a round box that has the cables coming out of it ? I would agree that the persons idea of using the conduit as a joint for a light is not so good as it makes it difficult for the next person that has to replace the light.But for something more permanent ? Dump some resin inside of it and it would make a good permanent joint. Hell it cant be worse than doing a emergency joint on a 50mm 4 core cable with 2 2liter cooldrink bottles and loads of tape and resin as not one of the suppliers had a joint big enough and the farmer had to have power. I think in the end any way you join a cable can be viewed as wrong by someone else.

[AndyD]

I'm back again now with some more time.

I think 6.14.3.6 applies.

The connections between circuit conductors and luminaire
conductors shall
a) allow enough slack immediately behind the base of the luminaire for
easy handling, and
b)[B] in the case of a pre-wired luminaire, be made using a connector.[/B]

Ferrules are not 'connectors'. Again there's no definition given but elsewhere references to connectors also refer to screw type connector blocks and push-in wire connectors.