The Electrical Certificate of Compliance explained

[Derlyn]

Hi All

Following on the question raised by jvdh regarding the panel for controlling 2 pumps where the panel is considered part of the "machine" being the 2 pumps, the question arises:

Does the control panel, housing circuit breakers, timer and a transformer for a domestic swimming pool also form part of the "machine" being the pool pump, or is it part of the installation ?

Derlyn

[jvdh]

Thanks GCE for the reply..

[Mellet L]

Hi Derlyn
The "panel" for a pool motor is actually a distribution board and is supplied by 220 volts, this then does not make the DB part of the "machine", so it must appear on the COC of the house being tested.
Hoping that this helps you.
Thanking you for the post.

[GCE]

Hi Derlyn

I had a conversation with an AIA over swim pool.
He felt that the standard type swim pool "DB"would not pass the sans test as a DB and that he prefers to call it a Motor control centre (MCC) .
If you install a weatherproof isolator and from the isolator feed the MCC you can regard the pool as a fixed apppliance .
The fixed appliance would still need to be electrically safe to sign the COC

The minute you take another light circuit or plug circuit from the MCC then it would become a DB

I disagree with Mellet - A "Pool DB "need not automatically be a DB but could be a MCC

[ians]

Hi Derlyn

I had a conversation with an AIA over swim pool.
He felt that the standard type swim pool "DB"would not pass the sans test as a DB and that he prefers to call it a Motor control centre (MCC) .
If you install a weatherproof isolator and from the isolator feed the MCC you can regard the pool as a fixed apppliance .
The fixed appliance would still need to be electrically safe to sign the COC

The minute you take another light circuit or plug circuit from the MCC then it would become a DB

I disagree with Mellet - A "Pool DB "need not automatically be a DB but could be a MCC

A pool DB is a pool DB ...sold as a pool DB ...generally made up of a main switch...plug circuit feeding a plug socket (standard as per reg 164) which feeds what ever is plugged into it ...be it a pump motor...lawnmower (not suppose...however it is a reality)...etc...a light circuit sometimes feeding a transformer for a light in the pool or just general lights...very seldom supplied with an earth leakage unit (you would be required to connect it to the e/l unit in the in the DB it is fed from because of the standard socket outlet)

However if you mounted a main switch/isolator ...motor control gear etc in a weather proof enclosure...mounted at the correct height (another issue with pool DB's)...feeding only a pump motor which has a weather proof isolator mounted within arms reach (not via a standard 16 amp socket outlet)...then we could start changing the name...as soon as you fit a light switch or standard socket ...you need to call a spade a spade.

Building water treatment and waste water plants is a different ball game to domestic pool pumps...An MCC would be made up of a pump control section which is dedicated to power and control for the level control...valves...pumps...pumps etc and in some cases if general lighting and power is required...a separate compartment for a "DB" which would have the main switch...earth leakage and circuit breakers...which could be completely separate from the MCC.

Pool DB's are another rats nest...the kind of issues i find is the DB is mounted to low...literally on the floor...too close to the pool...cables too small (many i have seen are fed via a 1.5 mm cable)...feeding gate motors...garden lighting...gazebos you name it.

[SeanM]

Greetings All

If a extractor fan (kitchen) is on an earth leakage would you still require an isolator?

[GCE]

Because an extraction fan is a motor , a motor has to have an isolator within a certain distance and 6.16.5.1.4 is relevant
To me the isolating in a DB does not allow for the total removal of the appliance as stipulated in the same reg 6.16.1.4 and it actually contradicts itself.
Using the ELU as the isolator would definitely not allow total removal unless that ELU was dedicated to the extractor only

6.16.5.1.4 Each motor shall be supplied by a manually operated
disconnector or any other manually operated disconnecting arrangement
such as a withdrawable circuit-breaker, a removable link, a fuse or by the
removal of a plug from a socket-outlet, which provides at least the same
isolating distance, for the sake of safety, as a disconnector that is
a) readily accessible and mounted on or next to the motor, or
b) visible from the motor, or
c) lockable in the open position, or
d) housed in a lockable enclosure other than a distribution board.

6.16.1.4 The disconnecting device shall be positioned
a) within 1,5 m from the appliance, or
b) in a distribution board (if the switch-disconnector is capable of being
locked in the open position).
Even where a disconnecting device is on the appliance, a separate
disconnecting device shall be provided in the fixed installation to allow for the
total removal of the appliance

[SeanM]

Evening GCE

Thank you as always for the informative response.

I was asking as in the regulations it says if a luminaire has a fan (motor) then an isolator must be fitted or it must be placed on an earth leakage, I am trying to understand the difference between a fan/motor on a luminaire and an extractor fan.

I did a COC and the extractor fan (one with a chimney and a double storey so no ceiling) in the kitchen has no isolator and for me to fit one now would involve chasing not ideal and I want it to be first of all compliant and second of all neat.

[GCE]

Hi Sean
There is no neat way only the right way .

I feel for you having to explain and it annoys me every time I have to explain and tell the owners ,"that I did not do it or make the rules , I just follow them "

[Derlyn]

Hi Sean

Does that extractor fan presently not get it's supply through a plug socket outlet ?

If so, the socket outlet, if within 1,5 meters of the appliance, serves as the isolator.

Derlyn

[ians]

Evening GCE

Thank you as always for the informative response.

I was asking as in the regulations it says if a luminaire has a fan (motor) then an isolator must be fitted or it must be placed on an earth leakage, I am trying to understand the difference between a fan/motor on a luminaire and an extractor fan.

I did a COC and the extractor fan (one with a chimney and a double storey so no ceiling) in the kitchen has no isolator and for me to fit one now would involve chasing not ideal and I want it to be first of all compliant and second of all neat.

Fit a lockable double pole circuit breaker/isolator combo (breakers are lockable)in the DB... problem solved.

[GCE]

Hi Ians

Have to disagree with you on your statement above - Extraction fan is regarded as a motor - 6.16.5.1.4 d bears relevance


6.16.5.1.4 Each motor shall be supplied by a manually operated
disconnector or any other manually operated disconnecting arrangement
such as a withdrawable circuit-breaker, a removable link, a fuse or by the
removal of a plug from a socket-outlet, which provides at least the same
isolating distance, for the sake of safety, as a disconnector that is
a) readily accessible and mounted on or next to the motor, or
b) visible from the motor, or
c) lockable in the open position, or
d) housed in a lockable enclosure other than a distribution board.

[Dave A]

c) lockable in the open position, or
d) housed in a lockable enclosure other than a distribution board.

I suggest what Ian proposes matches option c.
The isolator combo is lockable - one isn't relying on the locking of the distribution board enclosure.

You gave me a moment of pause there, Graeme. We've been using the lockable isolator combo solution as the elegant solution in a number of scenarios where we find missing isolator challenges - e.g. where ceiling fans that don't incorporate luminaires have been installed, bathroom extractor fans wired into the light circuits...

[GCE]

Reading again - You are right Dave

The original question of the earth leakage being the isolator - I would say only if the isolator is dedicated to the extract fan to be able to comply with 6.16.4



6.16.1.4 The disconnecting device shall be positioned
a) within 1,5 m from the appliance, or
b) in a distribution board (if the switch-disconnector is capable of being
locked in the open position).
Even where a disconnecting device is on the appliance, a separate
disconnecting device shall be provided in the fixed installation to allow for the
total removal of the appliance

[Longtom]

Good day Gents.

Was reading some of the posts on here and seem to be pretty mild compared to what Iv been through with a property that I bought just over two years ago. My case is somewhat different as I bought a newly built place from an old man which built with his own money and offered me finance. I decided to take it and then get a bond later.

At the time he showed me building plans, electrical COC and engineering certificates. Seemed legit so I paid him a large deposit and we moved in. I was mistaken as to this day the place is still not signed off. The trouble started last month where he had to get a new ECOC as was getting stuff ready for the building inspector to come out. He calls the same electrician that gave him the first COC and they just sat at the back and filled it in without setting foot in the house for an inspection. The old man knew that I had put up flood lights by another electrician. I then had my own inspection done and they were shocked at the way this install was done. From open boxes to no glands and the DB that has a zero earth leakage from the council box, wrong phase used and man a list goes on. I then get hold of the old man and told him about the problem but he responds by screaming at me and tells me that he will terminate the contract and I will walk away with nothing, at this time Iv almost invested 1 bar into this place. I then get hold of my lawyer and he sent him a 30 day notice to sort it out. About a week goes by and I get word that the building inspector is coming out so I make the time and meet with them at the house. I nearly fell on my back after I hear that the old man handed the same fake COC to the inspector as he was now under terms and rushed to sign it off. I showed the pictures to the inspector and mentioned that these were all sent via email to the old man some time before. The inspector blew his gasket on him that day and so did I and told him to get it sorted out. The old man then get's a qualified electrician out to go through everything and he took most of the day making a list and made some changes to the DB as he mention that the over current protection was to high and was worried about it. The electrician spoke to my girl friend on the day and told her that he would make sure by going through everything and provide a proper COC. We were then happy to hear that the old man finally got someone decent in but that was short lived as we then see some other guy pitch up two weeks ago to start working and now it would seem that he is making it even more illegal. The lights trip and we have had to switched off some of the breakers. I took pictures of the down lights and for some reason he has cut off the connector blocks that used to have an earth on them and just connecting them straight with two wires to the 220 supply. The bottom line here is that the old man don't want to pay and the crazy thing is that he has millions in the bank. He also has no regard to the fact that our five year old boy is also living in this house.