Violence in our schools

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Im not sue he is regretting or is remorseful, and that is the key.

We need to move away from blaming and excuses, people need to be responsible.

Children are far more advanced, children reach adulthood earlier, the age of responsibiltiy should be lowered. And perhaps parents should b ehedl vicariously liable.
I respect the law and human rights, but there must be a balance. I would rather sacrifice ten people to save 100. Life is not fair.

[Citizen X]

If it comes to sanction for transgression what would be the appropriate sentence, notwithstanding that there is currently sentences for these crimes, one needs to go back to Ancient Rome, some 2500 ago; and we simultaneously consider that Ancient Roman Law is the architect of our common law, though we’ve had many changes and we continue to develop the common law, their forms of punishments included:

Beheading ,Strangling in prison , Throwing a criminal from that part of the prison called Robur and placing him in a worse prison, Throwing a criminal from the Tarpeian rock(it wasn’t always at this rock, sometimes they threw you from a cliff or from whatever height was necessary to kill you,Crucifixion (in crucem actio) , Burying a person alive, Throwing a criminal into the river( this one explains itself, the authorities simply throw the criminal in the river[Ancient Rome).

Last but not least, they had lashing on the back with a sturdy leather whip meant to inflict as much grievous bodily harm as an abled man’s hand could inflict. For assault 12 whips was in order.
So if you could resort to this ancient and ineffective means of punishment or do you see that both parties:teachers as a group and school children as a group have current and on-going challenges
You may carry out assault in self- defence provided that certain requirements are met.

My question:

Since reality tv is such a big thing in this world why not encourage a few people to consent to a whipping for scientific purposes i.e. you just want to see how it is for someone to really get whipped that way by an able bodied man with a lethal whip. Will say maybe 5 whips do for a school child? You may then get a teacher with a boxing, gymning buzz and he then without reason gives the child a few smacks and punches. Or even a full on body assault and pour’s his wrath against that child as if he were in a fighting cage. Will this be suitable.

I think the better approach is that we do recognise that there are separate laws for criminal matters pertaining to children, that corporal punishment is unconstitutional and common assault is also a criminal offence punishable by the State. This one crime applies equally to all, no one may assault another[yes, in our society this takes place hourly], a teacher may not assault a student and a student should not assault a teacher..and the same applies to all other citizens. The obvious exceptions are taken as a given such as self-defence.

[Justloadit]

SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?

Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.

[Citizen X]

SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?

Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.

I’ll answer it in a round a bout manner i.e. answer your question last:-

At present corporal punishment is unlawfully and actually declared unconstitutional in a case championed by a group of Christian schools.

Suppose we say that a certain punishment for your kid should be allowed will you allow this?
Teacher(Background: Sports, fitness, with a little drinking problem[one in a millon!) He decided that his standard punishment if you get an answer wrong is that he slaps you once with all his might; for an offense of being rowdy in class he may slap you a few times, if necessary punch you about 3 times and if need be also kick you.

Would you allow this teacher the custody of teaching and disciplining your child?

Man remain a product of his very own society from which he comes. This applies equally to teachers and school children, they live in a crime riddled country where crime is of a serious and forceable nature. They have a host of socio economic issue: where to begin… We also in the continuing process of living to genuinely live in a multi-racial society.

For me it’s even simpler: If daddy is a criminal involves in atm bombings there must be some small chance that this affects the behavior of that individual school child. Many school kids get to see mummy and daddy violently striking on television, many get to see a kangaroo court with mob justice. The general problem in most South Africa provinces is alcohol and drug abuse, poverty, crime and poor service delivery.

What would I see as a fit punishment for this kid?
1. The school must have its own disciplinary code which they reportedly implemented by either threatening to expel this kid or in actual fact doing so, both would be appropriate from the school’s perspective;

2. The law: He committed assault but is a minor to whom the State owes a great responsibility. The court has to process his case in terms of the Child Justice Act so based on the fact that it’s a schedule one offence(not murder, armed robbery or rape), he can get a fine or compulsory attendance to vocational school. The idea is to prevent child offenders to the harsh exposure of the criminal justice system as we now know it.
What happens afterwards? This is my real question. The child is young, he made a mistake, he probably regrets it, he doesn’t like been on the news, he’s been expelled and arguably the court does sentence him to something, where does he go from there? This is what the Child Justice Act needs to do in practice. There needs to be a reintergration of the child offender into his family and community, he/she needs to accept responsibility and depending on what the court orders which can include a written apology as well.
This child still has a long live ahead of him if he plays his cards right notwithstanding what he did. He can’t undo his offence. Why should this be the end of his life?

[tec0]

Back in the day sickly kids like myself normally had a hard time. But I decided I will not be a punishing bag. So I got in trouble for hitting back. Later on a gang took me on 3 against 1 and I won... Shortly after that I got into my first knife fight then faced my first attacker armed with a gun. {note I was always unarmed}

Funny thing is I never faced just one person always a gang always armed. This was back in my day “with discipline still fully active”. So don’t give me “kids of today have no discipline crap”.

Schools are breading grounds for bullies and bad people. This is fact! So yes government is responsible for that child’s death. They didn’t take enough action to protect children and the truth is “in the old days” the same story applies.

So it is not “just the government from today!” The government of the old days was just as crappy to protect the children.

The first thing I learned was it doesn’t matter if the dude is big and muscular. His bones are bones organs are organs. I don’t care if they are “trained to resist pain” all of them scream eventually... I had to learn how to take on 3 attackers at a time this back in the day before video games. the worst attack I faced was 13 against my brother and myself.

So you can bring your snot klap and see how that works. Because it doesn't it never AS IN NEVER worked not then not now. What you need is safe schools.

Security is the answer here.

[adrianh]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

[tec0]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

It is not about that... No school could control me, no person with rank scared me. I respected my dad because he is a respectable person. I respected my mom because she is a respectable person. Both gave me the gift of Honour and integrity.

I defended people then I still do today. Do you honestly think a snot klap will do anything? A teacher tried that with me... guess what? My brother took him down because we don’t tolerate it. I was still a bit young then.

Do you know why I got the snot klap? Because they accused me of theft and I didn’t accept the blame because I was innocent.

Here are the facts... If bullies see security and see that they take action and see that they end up expelled or the police gets involved then they will back down because they have too. This is not about freedoms... I don’t know where you get the stuff.

This is about a failed system.

[Citizen X]

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

Not to make light of what is otherwise a harrowing unfolding of violence in schools around the globe as well as in our country but suppose you had a one in a million teacher who feels needs to carry a knife on his person for his personal protection.
This is necessary for going to and from work the school and protecting himself ensuring class. A naughty kid, let’s call him that, is rowdy and disruptive as his daddy is the neighbourhood drug lord.

An argument takes place between our teacher here and our school kid, so the teacher sees it fit to inflict corporal punishment with his knife. He does ensure that he stabs only once, once he’s stabbed you and you’ve settled down in class and the class can now continue, he will no longer stab you!!

[adrianh]

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

[Citizen X]

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

@Adrian, ironically enough you demonstrating the same assertiveness that Christian Education South, as representatives of a group of Christian schools, who endorsed and wanted corporal punishment took the matter all the way to the Constitutional Court v Minister of education.

The bone of contention is that they were unhappy with section 10(1) of the Schools Act 84 of 1996 which is a peremptory provision which states: “No person may administer corporal punishment at a school to a
Learner.” Their main argument was that a basic tenet of Christianity is that parents and all in parental authority should punish their children.

The Constitutional court completely rejected their argument. The applicant’s Christian Education South Africa depended on natural law to argue their case. The Constitutional Court looked at the legislation in place which is the Schools Act 84 of 1996 and found it to be completely constitutional. So this is where we at historically and legally in South Africa. Any teacher who assaults a school child will be criminally prosecuted. The same applies to a school child, if he/she commits common assault they will be charged but tried under the Child Justice Act.

So again, the kid committed common assault. This was wrong in the sense that it’s unlawful but also disrespectful. This doesn’t mean that he should receive a life sentence or subjection to a Roman style 12 lashes whipping. Imagine if in this whipping they said that they’d offer you an offer to provide 4 of the 12 lashes, would you give the school child an effective whipping? The whip must slice the flesh

[one in a million:the perfect teacher: Specs: BA in education, honours in education and masters in education. He’s a great maths teacher, won many accolades but he’s also a paedophile. So, in his mind he doesn’t want to physically punish your child, he feels that should your child go out of hand, he’ll simply sexually molest or assault them. One looks that the media coverage of such incidents and you really ask yourself :what’s happening?? Would you allow the possibility and circumstantial environment to allow this?