electrical certificate of compliance

**murdock** · 15-Jun-10, 11:32 PM

i am so tired of hearing and reading the same story...how people are getting ripped off by the electrical certificate of compliance...

when are people going to use common sense...you dont buy a second hand car without getting someone you trust to check the vehicle before you pay out your hard earned money ....why the f%^&* do people let the seller do the certificate of compliance...for what could be the biggest investment they will ever make and have to pay for the rest of their life...wake up people...have your investment checked by someone you trust or an independent company...PLEASE...i am so tired of hearing complaints

**AndyD** · 16-Jun-10, 12:02 AM

I think they're under the impression that the COC will be done according to a set of rules so it shouldn't matter who commissions the electrician to test for it, the results should be the same.

**adrianh** · 16-Jun-10, 07:10 AM

when are people going to use common sense...you dont buy a second hand car without getting someone you trust to check the vehicle before you pay out your hard earned money

I don't think the average guy know an electrician, plumber, tiler, builder etc let alone one who they trust.

I agree with AndyD, it is not a function of whether it is completed by the buyer or the seller, it is about the integrity of the electrician.

**murdock** · 16-Jun-10, 08:36 AM

so what you are sayiing is the elctricians out there are the problem...well i would agree to a point...the way i see if you get an electrician who stands on te side of the road with a sign...reading electrician and phone number...what do you expect...i do believe the electricians in the industry are tooo well protected and as i have mentioned before if there wasnt a fine for wearing a seat belt very few people would wear one...and that is why so many are taking chances...because they can get away with it...and the customers themselves are also to blame for using unregistered...unskilled people to carry out electrical work because they can save a buck or two...then try sell the property and cry long tears when a person like myself does the inspection reoprt and finds R40 000 worth of illegal wiring...so they find one of these electricians who do COC without even leaving the office for around R450

THE PROBLEM WITH THE INDUSTRY IS THE PEOPLE WHO REGULATE THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS OR MANPOWER TO CONTROL THE INDUSTRY SO THEY ARE TRYING TO PALM IT OFF ONTO PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS AND CONTRACTORS WHO ALSO DONT HAVE THE MANPOWER OR AUTHOURITY OR CORRECT ETHICS TO MANAGE IT...ONLY ONCE THE GOVERMENT PUTS A SYSTEM IN PLACE WILL THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY BE PROTECTED AGAINST THESE CROOKS.

another way of looking at it...i cost R750 + vat and up to do an "inspection report"...NOT A CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE...there seems to be so much confusion with this...people seem to think if i inspect the property they qualify for a coc...WRONG...that is just the beginning of the process...a house for example...the coc will be at least 6 pages for the coc and at least 3 pages...with a sketch of the property and location of all components tested...an actuall inspection report with the details of the visual inspection...photos of non compliant components...a print out of all test results and any other notes taken.

some factories we test have inspection reports 50 pages long...which include the transfomer information...structual earth test results...thermal inspection reports...etc...etc.

something else i have notoiced is inspectors test an installation do an inspection report and never go back to the site to verify the repairs where actually carried out.

when i started out as an electrician 28+ years ago at 16 years old i was so proud that i had manged to get a position as an appy electrician...nowa days i feel embarressed to be regarded as an electrican...i dont know what my title would be at this point in time...maybe something like master thermal power electrical and engineering technician

yeah right.

**AndyD** · 16-Jun-10, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by murdock

so what you are sayiing is the elctricians out there are the problem...well i would agree to a point...the way i see if you get an electrician who stands on te side of the road with a sign...reading electrician and phone number...what do you expect...

When it comes to certification of any kind, be it COC or Safety Certificates the problem is completely with the electricians. Only licensed electricians are able to issue certification and register those certificates. I don't think you can blame the 'lowest price mentality' of the customer, the fact the electrician must be registered to do this means that the certification standards should be constant. If they're not then it's an industry problem not a customer one.

Maybe the businesses that offer pest and electrical certificates bundled together at low prices are cornering the house sale certificate market. They can afford to do the electrical certificates at a lower price because they're already on site for the bug certificate (or vice versa). There might be an arguement that they're loss leadering but this is a business ethics issue: even if that's the case the electrical certification standards should still be consistent.

**adrianh** · 16-Jun-10, 06:30 PM

...and the customers themselves are also to blame for using unregistered...unskilled people to carry out electrical work because they can save a buck or two...

This stement is problematic. When the average person goes to see a surgeon they expect the surgeon to be skilled and qualified. By the same token, when they look up the details of an electrician in the yellow pages, they expects the same. The customer doesn't know whether the surgeon or electrician is qualified - and if they were to show a fake qualification document, the customer wouldn't know the difference anyway.

The problem goes deeper than just certification and electricians - it goes to all professions. I have been to numerous sites where the DB boards were signed off by "qualified" electricians. Those boards were downright dangerous, but again, the customer doesn't know one way or another whether 10mm or 6mm wire should be used or whether the earth leakage is installed or not. I have seen plumbers on site install PVC pipe and charge for copper.

It all comes down to the integrity of the individual.

**murdock** · 16-Jun-10, 08:28 PM

i agree with both of you...unfortunately i am in a position where i run the company and hands on...so i spend most of my time on site working...dealing with the shocking electrical installation we speak of on a daily basis...

i can tell you that there are very few electrical installations which are up to standard...some inspectors dont even understand how to work out fault levels and the effects on an installation...yet they sign over COCs

i have learnt to put blinkers on when i go to work...otherwise i would spend more time writting reports about illegal electrical installations and wiring than doing any work...yet if i get caught for not reporting the illegal installation the onus falls on me and not the crimminal who did the work and i get taken to task because i should have known better...and switched off the installtion if it is unsafe...just imagine how populer i would be.

unfortunatley i have got to a point in my life where i have learnt from bad experiences not to hear or see any evil anymore...be it crimminals as in murders or tradesmen...its a pretty messed up industry...and justice system.

a customer requests a quote for a coc for an installation...i tell him 750 he tells me he can get it done for 450...so get the guy for 450...my point is dont complain when you move into a new house and the previous owner has used an elctricial inspector costing 450 for a coc and signed it over...as i have mentioned on numerous occassions...these crimminals should be arrested for fraud...yet the customers themselves are using these inspectors...because they are cheaper...what i am saying is then dont cry when it rebounds on you...

we get cornered by customers...i will give you a good expample...a project i did a couple of months ago...i was instructed by the customer to install a specific cable and i refused...he purchased all the material and insisted that the cable be used i provided documentation to prove the cable was incorrect for the application...yet his words where " but i have been installaling this cable for years on all the other projects they have done and never had a problem"...so i put my hands in the air and walk away...think about it...think about my family and how i am to provide food and pay my bond...i go back and install the cable but refuse to issue a coc...but now i dont get paid because i refuse to issue the coc...so what do i do now?

another instant ( this happened a long time ago and will never happen again) i get called out by a mate to issue a coc because he is selling his house...so i do an inspection report find a list of issues which need to be sorted out...he tells me to disconect all the illegal wiring...but realises the security lights...the plug for his fridge etc are gona be disconnected...so he asks me not to disconnect it and only disconnect when he moves out...so i sign over the coc and wait for his call to tell me when he moves...so i can go disconnect...i dont hear from him instead i get a call from a lawyer threatning me with all sorts of kak...at that time very inexperienced i go back to find the new owner i n the house...they demand that i make good all the illegal wiring and not disconnect anything...so i do at my cost...as i said never again will friend...family member or customer ever get that right with me again...how does the saying go once bitten twice shy.

**murdock** · 16-Jun-10, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by AndyD

When it comes to certification of any kind, be it COC or Safety Certificates the problem is completely with the electricians. Only licensed electricians are able to issue certification and register those certificates. I don't think you can blame the 'lowest price mentality' of the customer, the fact the electrician must be registered to do this means that the certification standards should be constant. If they're not then it's an industry problem not a customer one.

Maybe the businesses that offer pest and electrical certificates bundled together at low prices are cornering the house sale certificate market. They can afford to do the electrical certificates at a lower price because they're already on site for the bug certificate (or vice versa). There might be an arguement that they're loss leadering but this is a business ethics issue: even if that's the case the electrical certification standards should still be consistent.

let me try explain this in a diferent way..

i get called out ot do an inspection...the customer has saved himself a lot of money by using an unskilled unqualified labourer who knows just enough to con the customer and has a mate who signs over coc for his work without even going to site...he sells the house and saves himself a lot of money...knowing the so called electrician he has used is not legit.

he moves into a new house and the previous owner has done the same thing...but now because he has bought the new house and spent a few million...decides to get a reputable inspector in to check the house and finds the house has a list 10 pages long of faults...talk about a back lashing of note...now he wants to bitch and complain...but there are some many doing this type of thing.

bottem line is the inspector who signs over the coc is the crimminal...who needs to be bought ot book...but the customers must stop using so called electricians from the road side...and pirate contractors...police the industry and root out these crimminals and everyone will benefit.

my complaint is if you buy stolen goods you create a market for crimminals dont complain about that the crime rate is out of control.

**murdock** · 16-Jun-10, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by adrianh

...and the customers themselves are also to blame for using unregistered...unskilled people to carry out electrical work because they can save a buck or two...

This stement is problematic. When the average person goes to see a surgeon they expect the surgeon to be skilled and qualified. By the same token, when they look up the details of an electrician in the yellow pages, they expects the same. The customer doesn't know whether the surgeon or electrician is qualified - and if they were to show a fake qualification document, the customer wouldn't know the difference anyway.

The problem goes deeper than just certification and electricians - it goes to all professions. I have been to numerous sites where the DB boards were signed off by "qualified" electricians. Those boards were downright dangerous, but again, the customer doesn't know one way or another whether 10mm or 6mm wire should be used or whether the earth leakage is installed or not. I have seen plumbers on site install PVC pipe and charge for copper.

It all comes down to the integrity of the individual.

i agree with you...as mentioned in other threads...writting something doesnt always come out the way you want it to.

the question i am sure everyone is asking...

how do you find a company with individuals with integrity?

**adrianh** · 16-Jun-10, 10:38 PM

Integrity, this is an interesting word when the boss is shouting about profit margins, the wife about the new plasma TV and the bank manager about foreclosing on the bond. I suspect that the guy who does things by the book ends up getting the arse end of the deal.

I must that you've clearly shown that there are unscrupulus customers as well as tradesmen. What's the answer - I suppose like you say "Throw up your hands and say - whatever you want..."