I agree with you Garthu....
I agree with you Garthu....
IJS Installations
Electrical, Residential Gas and Electric fencing.
Apologies for the delayed post, busy in PTA, new SC and GEIA keeping me very, very, very busy...Originally Posted by Jacques#1
Just to clarify, SANS 10142-1:2009 (whatever version you may have) is enacted by the OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS, 2009.
This is very relevant, since the act precedes the regulations it enacts.
Which means, whatever the regulations (10142) states, will never last more than 5 seconds in a court of law, if such enacted regulations contradicts the OHS Act 0f 1993 with the amendments published in 2009, which was signed into power by a government representative. That act, is the law, not sans 10142.
So, most, if not all, registered electrical contractors, be it a spt, ie, or mie, lives by the book, which is 10142. Which is all good, until the man in the street has to foot the bill. And therein lies the issue, one could twist and turn 10142 to such an extent that the lines becomes extremely blurred: One contractor quote this and the other quotes that. The cheaper quote usually wins. The out-quoted guy is demoerin. Now the fun starts: Manipulation, exaggeration, exploitation, assimilation, geia-excitation, bullshitbafflesbrain gains and, eventually, as a result, market dissemination including the bad name we have as electrical contractors.
Anyway, if the house was built in 1980, and it did not change ownership, the owner does not even need a coc. That is the law. (See OHS, 1993 of 2009).
If the guy sold the house, then the act comes into practice: Now the guy has to provide a valid coc. (The selling contract usually binds him to provide the new owner with a valid coc) But, then again, a "valid" coc has 3 different meanings. (see ohs act 1993 of 2009)
To answer your post: "The guy installed a lot of stuff" is irrelevant. He, as the owner of the property, is entitled to do so.
The issue regarding: : "No Earth Leakage" is required by the enactment of SANS 10142-1 of 2009:Clause 5 - General Safety Principles. (Page 70: 5.1.3.3 which refers to 6.7.5. "existing installations" :
Earth Leakage Protection on socket outlets IS required by Reg.5 (General Safety).
If it is not broken, fix/test it until it is.
This is my opinion and I stick to it.
I'll rather loose jobs because I am overcautious i.e. more expensive than take chances and one day accidentally like a few electricians I know get burned. Who thought they knew the law back wards, and after one day writing a half arsed COC got to fork out in excess of R40k. The whole lot of them refuse to write COC's today because of that. They did go to court and they did loose their battles, they all had very good lawyers.
If a guy changed things in his very old house, but recently changed, I don't care if you are the pope, I will not issue you a COC if that house does not comply to the new law....period.
Yesterday I went to a customer who had an electrician at his premises, who wrote a COC, for work he done, and the entire premises, thought he was clever, the existing house is old and the flat is brand new. I am doing a quote to fix the mess, and to get the old house up to standard, in excess of R15k, and this electrician is being sued by the estate agent/previous owner and her lawyers, this after an engineer also visited the property to consult in the matter of what is wrong on the premises, including the "old" house.
IJS Installations
Electrical, Residential Gas and Electric fencing.
If you could pse pm me the details of the electrician being sued I would try hard to ensure he is defended pro bono, which could be a test case for this issue.
And I have to agree with you, the installation has to be compliant and safe, but only to the extent of Chapter 5 of sans 10142-1, and not the complete sans 10142.
If the electrician ignored any regulation in Chapter 5 he is in for a rough ride. If he is being sued for issues outside chapter 5 he is smiling.
Last edited by 123; 02-May-10 at 06:07 AM.
If it is not broken, fix/test it until it is.
This is my opinion and I stick to it.
This guy on Gods green earth, will not get out of this one. He did not complete the flat, did not fit any S/O's, Light swi's, Lights, he supplied the flat with 4mm2, he wired the garage/lapa from a plug point in the flat, he installed couple of things in the main house (making it post 1992), he also signed the COC with his brothers registration number. (COC was written for all, including the flat with nothing fitted).
IJS Installations
Electrical, Residential Gas and Electric fencing.
On the same subject.......
i consulted on a house where an electrician stuffed up. Really did not want to get the guy into trouble, so I managed to get him off the hook, but he will never be recommended buy the residents...infact the opposite.
The house was built before 1992. It has been renovated a few times, and electrical equipment added. The electrician used the old COC and basically just re-wrote it, he did this incorrectly as well (marked post 1992 etc making him liable for anything not up to standard). The S/O's is not switching, there is no main switch (you can see its a new E/L, so the old one had O/L function), some lights is not working etc (the actual switches......"all switcgear is making/breaking circuits"....).
If you are allowed to sign a house before and post 1992, as I have been informed, please tell me, I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyy want to know, how do you tell what was installed before 1992, and what was installed post 1992??????????? if this house was renovated in 1993 or 1994, its been in the house for 15 odd years, you are not going to tell the difference between old and new!! The gate motor need an isolator, but is a very old Hansa, space heaters have been installed with no isolators, S/O needs replacing, the geysers need Isolators......what in this house then is before 1992, and is reasonably safe????? what is not reasonably safe, and must comply to SANS 10142????????
IJS Installations
Electrical, Residential Gas and Electric fencing.
the question you have to ask is how many people have kept the sans 0142regulations relavant to an electrical installation prior to 1992???
the way i see it the installation is either reasonably safe or not...it not how can you sign over a coc...
an example a fuse box mounted on a piece of wood at the entrance to a house with exposed wiring like they did in the old days...it is clear when an insulation resistance test is carried out...is it safe just because it was installed 40 years ago?
Thanks for your comment Murdock.....but what would you say I must do? My gut is telling me that I must treat the installation as post 1992, and make it safe and up to standard since I cannot tell, my head is telling me that my findings is going to land up by the laywers who is selling the property, it is going to be a few thousand rand, and they are going to get another electrician (3rd one) who may say, yes but how can this guy say he must replace XYZ if this part of the installation is prior to 1992?
Can you see my dilemma? Who was the smart arse who said that you can fill in both blocks on the COC? Did that guy/committee not think for themselves about the consequences????????????
IJS Installations
Electrical, Residential Gas and Electric fencing.
always go with your gut feel...it helps you sleep better at night...you can never be over cautious...the sans book is merly guidlines...so long as you dont feel you are ripping the people off and it is in their best interest to fix it properly...the judge cannot and will not hold you accountable if you have taken resonable steps to ensure the safety of people...however they will nail your backside to the wall if the installation is not reasonably safe...regardless if the installation is 200 years old.
if i am not sure what to do i do it my way or i walk away....or clearly state your observation and intention in the quote and submit it...if they dont accept it...walk away.
in the 19 years of working in this industry as a sole proprietor...i have had to make numerous decision without anyones help...i go with my gut feel...it something doesnt feel right be it the person i am dealing with or the work itself i walk away...there will always be other jobs.
even jobs where i have had opitunities to make big money...but have to pay a fee under the table...i walk away...and still after all these years my little bussiness still pays the bills
if you want... i will give you my email address so you can forward me queries and if i cannot help i now have a person who helps me with complex questions...especially hazardous location and big installations like factories etc.
I see this is old but the way I work is that despite being pre92 and now needing to be certified "reasonably safe", when I inspect I use the regulations applicable at that point in time with safety requirements added. Thus should there be open wiring I would apply all the requirements for open wiring: support,gap,joints, heght to roof etc. As for ELCBs' they are a pre-requisite to issuing a COC now and have been for a few years. They were made compulsory for new installations at first and were phased in by allowing for installation of one as the installation was changed. If there was not one and you installed 1 socket outlet you were required to install an ELCB. The period of fasing in is over and done. If there is no ELCB you must install one, whether the installation has changed or not, before issueing a COC.
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