Labour on release of Employment Equity Report to M Mdladlana by J Manyi

[IanF]

This is a great debate and good to listen to the other side.
What I see is both sides digging in their heels and not listening to the points put across. There are lots of mistakes and problems with the AA, BBEE, EE implementations which upsets me, then this is just papered over and ignored.
I must also understand the hardships suffered by the PDIs of the country and see how this affected them and still does affect them.

But we mustn't reduce everything to the lowest common denominator as the government is always threatening. Rather use the spirit of ubuntu to prove that we won't become just another African basket case by embracing the future.

[Muzi Oscar]

Marq - I think you are amplifying myths. BEE & BBBEE could not have cost you your job as these policies only look at "ownership".
Now, what was your employers reason to terminate your service? Did they explicity say we need to replace you with a black person? If that is the case, you have tangable evidence that you were unfairly dismissed - and your case have merits to make it to court. Remember that there is a lot of misinterpretations of policies in South Africa and those that challenge decisions set presedence for other people and make the public aware. Remember people of Chinese origin only got "black" last year, if no one stood up and said something they will still be neglected. By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race. Most companies (including the one I work for) have excellent EE acreditation by flooding positions with white women. So i am supprised you say your wife was a "victim"
If its just your perception that you lost your job because you are white, then you are contributing to emplifiying the myth.

Nowhere in AA, EE policies does it say fire white people to get black people. In some instances where companies see that it will take too long for a white person in certain position to retire, they are offered early retirement packages - NOTE this is different from retrenchment, it can not be forced on you if you do not want to retire. And retrenchment needs to come with sastifactory reasons - AA & EE are legally not those reasons.

Having Black & White companies futher divides the country (its already doing that). I will prefer having South African companies. If you look at major projects, there is a lot of Black & White companies forming Joint Ventures just to meet the BEE criteria. But this debate is about Employment Equity - its separate from BEE. In a project i am currently doing for Transnet in PE we are dealing with one of these Joint Ventures. Only ownership is Black Empowered, at operational level i am the only black person in the project. So, you need to understand & separate these policies. Now how did my white collegues suffer from BEE?

Dave: Build goodwill towards each other is the fundamental foundation. Like I earlier said, its the WILL that's lacking. Policy will only achieve minimum requirements, but the WILL can achieve greater things. But you can only remove the policy when the will is evident.
And as soon as we stop seeing each other as threats or competetors (as you said) we can achieve a lot much smoother without the ministers throughing tentrams over EE reports.

[Marq]

There is a vast difference between what the policies say, what the legal side says and whats practiced.

When you sit, as I did in a company that follows BEE practice, scorecards etc and claims to be black empowered, then they automatically start looking at edging out the white element and introducing your new manager and co workers. Firstly there is no more advancement for a white guy - if he just sits in a position he will remain there forever at that level, be sidelined etc. Secondly his salary will start to be reduced in relation to his co workers on the same level. Thirdly he is threatened and harassed with warning letters and hearings for things he did not do. All these things, I experienced until suddenly one day I was 'retrenched', given a package, sign a deal that says there will be no come backs and bye bye thanks for the memory. One could have fought this and claimed foul in terms of bee policies and unfair labour practice, unfair dismissal, but now we are talking lawyers fees, postponements of hearings and much time wasting, denial and proof etc with a potential no result, cause my lawyers bigger than your lawyer scenario exists.

For my wife it was a case of a joint venture scenario to obtain bee status where the smaller company where she worked got the retrenchment deal.

Now you start looking around and the first thing that you are made aware of is that you cannot apply for that job you may have your eye on because it is reserved for an aa position only...sorry, try again next week - maybe a company that is not worrying about bee or aa will have a position for you. Try that for a month or so and see if you do not feel that you should be in another country rather.

So you see, as much as you may want to believe these stories to be myths and urban legend, they are the reality that is out there.

Some people allege that skilled white people are leaving the country because of a lack of opportunity due to BEE policies.


Black and white people are affected. There is no incentive to stay in the country if you know the top jobs go to the elite and their cronies. Affirmative action and BEE policies have become the inside track for the elected few.

At the moment there are 500,000 unfilled professional vacancies. Every professional who is employed, can create a job opportunity for others who are less skilled.

South Africa is becoming a de-industrialised country. We depend on imports rather than exports. In 1985, 31 percent of our gross domestic product came from the manufacturing sector. Now it is only 16 percent. Thousands have lost their jobs. Our footwear manufacturing industry has collapsed and those who are skilled in making footwear have disappeared. We are going backwards.

Yes, it is cheaper to import many products than to manufacture them, but it is a self-defeating argument. People are losing their jobs and people without jobs are anyway not in a position to buy those imported goods.

The elite have become consumers who live off systems that were created before 1994. They do not see themselves as producers and they do not start new businesses. more here

This is from an interview with Moeletsi Mbeki, brother of Thabo Mbeki. His book on these issues and policies is called 'Architects of Poverty'. According to him, it is about perpetuating a system that induces racism, socialism and keeps the minority at bay. It is about allowing a few white South Africans to feel less guilty about a system very few had control of, a few black South Africans the opportunity to advance and a majority of people the opportunity to suffer some more while the white man is 'punished' for what he has done.

As things stand today, most BEE players have nothing more than golf course tips to share with their children. How sad!

When a black man tells the world that white people are not doing enough to make him rich, what message is he sending to future generations of black South Africans? Is it that black people today are not capable of making money for themselves?

This sort of attitude reflects the current black economic empowerment (BEE) state of mind, which is the attitude of some black people who opt for the easy way to wealth: buy small portions of companies owned or run by white people, sit back and voila! In a few years' time you become a millionaire.

Two more quotes - this time from Jabulani Sikhakhane - here. Said in 2006 already.

Now tell me that these two are spreading myths and don't know what bee is really all about. Tell me that very nature of bee and aa does not automatically create a racial and threatening problem by their very nature.

Remove these policies and you will remove the threats and racial tension designed by the elite to create gain for themselves only. The other sad part about these policies is that these elite have managed to get the people to buy into the idea and propagate it amongst all.
With these forced racial policies out the way, we will be able to move forward together and build this Country properly, with a decent outlook for all, with a more trusting attitude towards each other and a genuine Will to create a positive secure life for all.

[Muzi Oscar]

firstly BEE & EE policies have achieved to create more than 5million new "black middle class" enabling the economy to grow steadily untill the recent global meltdown (see how dangerous to only depend on exports? it also gives too much power to countries you trade with and they destroy you in a year if they want like they did to Zimbabwe. Balanced trade is more important)
Elected Elite argument is not Valid - Its a resentful Media Urban Lgend.

Please remind Mr Mbeki that in 1985 we were excluded from the world - and therefore forced to "do things ourself". And also tell him that 31% of 100 = 31 and 16% of 500 = 80 which is bigger 31 (my point being our GDP is more than 5 times what it was in 1985). Tell him i don't think Patrice Motsepe is a consumer who lives off systems that were created before 1994 - because I know he bought non-profiting mines and turned them around to make himself a Billionaire (to do that you will need to know more than playing golf).
People like him (there were lot in the apartheid era), lack decency to really look at things and analys them. He wants to sell his books - good for him - BUT not in expense of other people. A pychologist once told me "sub-conscious mind is a powerful idiot and conscious mind is a powerless genius". Steve Biko was removed too early from us because preached consciousness to reverse the most powerfull tool of apartheid - slavery of the mind. And people like Mr Mbeki's sub-conscious minds tells them its ok to say things like "When a black man tells the world that white people are not doing enough to make him rich, what message is he sending to future generations of black South Africans? Is it that black people today are not capable of making money for themselves?"
To them, white people got wealth purely because of their genius minds - it had nothing to do with historic occurances like Apartheid, Slavery, etc... During the hard times in this country people like him got burned with tyres (those that burnt could not understand why a black man can be so anti black - cause they also did not know any better, except that their minds were more free).

"This sort of attitude reflects the current black economic empowerment (BEE) state of mind, which is the attitude of some black people who opt for the easy way to wealth: buy small portions of companies owned or run by white people, sit back and voila! In a few years' time you become a millionaire." Being involved in MLM business, I know that black people are not lazy as the myths says. In MLM, the play fields are really leveled... and biggest MLM organisation in SA (IFA of Clentele Life) is massively black dominated. Not all black people are Investors, and there is nothing wrong with being as Investor - remember you get financial freedom, you need to use Other Peoples Money or Other Peoples Time. If you have something to invest and you want to go the OPM route, go for it. If you are Kaiser Motoung and build an organisation from scratch with the OPT option, go for it. We can not resent people for having high financial IQ, just because we are programmed to "work hard" in a job (Clearly Mr Mbeki does not know this).

So, lets not pretend white people did it on their own..... Because they did not - They took advantage of opportunities that favoured them. And most will not agree with me, because the powerfull idiot (sub-consious mind), tells them they did it because they are Superior.

[Dave A]

Just an aside:

Marq - I think you are amplifying myths. BEE & BBBEE could not have cost you your job as these policies only look at "ownership".

That was narrow based BEE. B-BBEE was supposed to stop that narrow scope and we've now got 7 areas that are assessed. Still heavily weighted towards ownership, but it does cover other relevant stuff.

By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race.

I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.

However, as you say - we're dealing primarily with EE here.

But you can only remove the policy when the will is evident.

I think most of the buggers without the will have left. We're approaching a chicken and egg situation - something/someone has got to break the cycle.

[Muzi Oscar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzi Oscar
By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race.

I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.

[IanF]

Quote:I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.

Muzi
If you use your crystal ball do you see 50 years in the future that there will be a program for white males who have legally been discriminated against since democracy. Will this process go the full circle and just perpetuate itself?
Anyway I vote for a normal society where we look past race etc. and just get on with life

[Muzi Oscar]

"Eleanor Roosevelt's comment - "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." is so true. " It is true, but if you look at Southern African context where black people had 12 years of mental conditioning to thinking they did not contribute to civilazation and were less intellectually capable - I am talking about Bantu Education, false history (they mistrify who built Pyramids in Egyt, ruined walls in Zimbabwe, stolen ancient books from Mali found in Engalnd, Mining activies in Mapungubwe, Egyptian collection museum in Berlin that Arab Egyptians will never make an effort to claim cause it does not have Arabs, hiding race of invetors [traffic lights, escalators, light bulbs,etc.] etc.).

We can't say black people gave consent in all these instances now, can we? You can not deny that history has succeeded in undermining the black race. And not every black person will search for truths in history. Some will fall in cracks like Mr Mbeki....

[Marq]

I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.

Dave - I think we are a bit beyond that here. Muzi has done nothing to get to know anyone and has accused me of various racial slants from the start, refuses to accept that another side actually exists. Its a pity that he is not able to defend bee and aa policy without that personal attack and jibe every time or being able to see beyond its real motives or understand the effects it really is having on other race groups.

A typical blinkered view, introducing race superiority and supremacy into a debate that does not call for it, offering nothing to defend the policies besides revenge for the past, convinced that it includes all when it does not and offering nothing as an alternative, having completely missed the point. It is a stubborn stance, dragging the past forward into the future as a result of racial fear, no different to the apartheid regime. It perpetuates racial tension and does not allow sight into the issues at hand for a real new South Africa where all can play a part and live in harmony.

[Muzi Oscar]

"A typical blinkered view, introducing race superiority and supremacy into a debate that does not call for it, offering nothing to defend the policies besides revenge for the past, convinced that it includes all when it does not"

Marq: But you are the one that posted a quote that undermine a certain race group from people who were in ANC and now that they broke away they are critisising policies they were part of using cheap racial remarks. I was not going to let you get away with that.

And if my view is that EE is the correct policy, the members of this forum can not expect me to be on the other side - what will be the point for debate then? i expect anyone who does not agree with a current situation to suggest an alternative that we can all scrutinise.

And if you bring personal experiences in the debate, we will scrutinise them as well (with respect of course). If you don't want it to be challange, don't put it in a debate.

My view is that white women are WHITE so saying EE is a racial devide does not hold.