Labour on release of Employment Equity Report to M Mdladlana by J Manyi

[Marq]

I think our fellow white citizen must stop taking offense on these progressive policies like BEE, EE, Skills Development, etc. Because the alternative to these is what happened in Zimbabwe. We need to think of ourselves as South Africans and do whats right. It does not take a rocket scientist to evaluate that exclusion or sidelining is bad.

The policies of bee and ee do just that - sideline and exclude. How can you tell us these are progressive policies and that the white citizens should not take offense?

There must be a better mechanism to create transformation that involves all, enables skills development and reduces the racial tension and resentment that seems to be growing rather than dissipating. These policies are a reminder of job reservation and signs that now say blacks only - where have we seen that before?

[Muzi Oscar]

Dave
"Blacks actually decreased by 8,7 percentage points from 50,0 percent to 41,3 percent at the professionally qualified and middle management level."
There is an increase in Top & Senior management in fact. But a huge decrease in Professionals & Middle management level. This tells me there is not continuity and companies are doing as little as possible to meet the minimum requirements. They take a handfull of "black" professionally qualified and move them up the ranks without filling the gaps behind. Thats why you see a slight increase in the "apex" and worstning situation in Middle management. If you look at the ratios of black graduates compared to white graduates that leave Universities and Technikons it totally changes when it gets to entering the job market. If you look at the number of black Professionally qualified people in parastatals and private companies that deal directly with government its more representative of graduate ratios. So why are other private organisations struggling to recruit black professionals and middle managers? There is now WILL. Thats's they need to be "forced" with legislations.

Marq,
If you don't think correcting the damage apartheid did to our country than you are admitting that you fully supported it. Did you actively oppose Apartheid? I doubt....
The mistakes of the past were racial, to correct them you do need to look at racial representation otherwise you will always have a group of citizens who believe they are superior to other groups. There is no other way. If "prevelaged whites" took initiative and volunteered to correct the imbalances caused by politicians, there will be no need to get politicians involved (no need for legislation). By the way things are going now, these legislations will be needed for much longer.
You need to also remember that these legislations were agreed in CODESA as forms of reconciliation and rebuilding the country to represent everyone that leaves in it equally. These are much better than civil wars we have seen in other parts of the world and forcefull removals of people from their properties.

These are necessary Marq. You need to drive around all corners of this country to realise that. If you keep to your comfortable home or surbub and assume that everyone lives like that, you won't find it in your heart to do a little bit you can to take us all forward.

[Marq]

Muzi,
Certainly I did not and do not support apartheid or any of its results, quite the opposite. As usual you judge me as guilty because I am white, when you do not even know me, my past or what I have or have not done. Unfortunately this is done as general rule and is one of the underlying problems in society in our country.

What I am saying is that we are correcting the situation by a complete reversal of roles, which is like two wrongs do not make a right. I feel that there should be a better way of going about this.

We now have a group of white citizens, many of whom had nothing to do with the previous scenario, many of whom did not support the previous regime, many of whom are not the privileged people you believe them to be and most of whom agree that we need to right the wrongs that were created. To lump all whites into the same group and say they no longer count, no longer have a say and disregard their input without regard to their support to the situation is what is cause for concern.

I cannot speak for them, but it would appear that our other racial groups are also still sidelined and do not feel that they have a future in the country either.

It was the same group of politicians who created the problem situation that agreed to the terms on how to uncreate it. While it may have seemed to be the correct or only way forward at the time, we are now 15 years down the road and perhaps this is a time to review how the inclusion of all people can be made to alleviate the continual underlying racial tones, skill shortages and current unjust situations that seem to be out there. I believe bee and aa policies are just creating a new selection of a few privileged people, and people round the corner as you put it, are never going to see any benefit. The current unhappiness and unrest with regard to service delivery is one of the signs of this. We still have unrest in the universities and education is a huge concern for all. Labour, unions and the general workforce are still crying out with the unfairness of wage splits, increases and management conduct. CEO's and top management of all the large parastatals, municipal bosses, and large coprporations, all of whom are bee compliant, award themselves rewards way beyond any market justification in the name of righting the wrongs of the past, while the workers are left out in the cold as usual. Is this all the fault of the previous regime or is this the greed and fault of the new one?

I don't believe the current forcing of the situation to recruit more black professions in middle management is the answer. If one takes the accounting world as an example, it would appear that the number of qualified accountants are few and these are being recruited firstly by the top accounting firms, then the large corporations who can offer nice packages and a good percentage are finding their way overseas. There are just not enough to go round. To now force a situation of employing someone who is perhaps not suited or qualified for a position can only lead to a potential problem and I don't believe that this augers well for the future.

There is only a whip and threat scenario for private companies and individuals to 'conform'. At this stage it would appear that retribution for the past will only be resolved when all whites have been removed from the land and from business, sitting in a poor unprivilege scenario. Then will the majority be happy? What is there for a future which appears to have no happy resolution for the minority? At what stage or by what time period will bee and aa and white persecution be removed? When will their 'sentence for crimes committed' actually be imposed.

Surley there is a better scenario by utilising the skill set available and allowing those perceived to have obtained education and privilege by unfair means to correct the situation properly, rather than force them or exclude them out of the equation.

[IanF]

Muzi
I am busy reading Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. My description so far is it the animal farm of socialism. There they put the good of the people above everything else. I am at the part where society is falling apart due to social engineering and centralised control. The one thing that struck me, was a meeting with the captains of industry, government and the unions. Unions where insisting on a 10% pay hike but industry couldn't raise prices to cater for it plus the unions wanted guaranteed jobs. Make profit is not socially good. Now all the industry leaders are resigning. I will finish the book but it is heavy reading.

What struck is the similarities with SA. Unions on strike for more wages and students rampaging against fee increases. WTF guys catch a wake up. Now the question is what do the business owners do, I have heard of people closing down companies when they had an adverse CCMA ruling which they didn't agree with, I don't know if that is true or an urban legend. But what is going to happen if business owners just stop employing more people or just close down. Look at Zimbabwe.

Look at the waste of money, millions to D Mpofu from SABC now transnet paying millions for some deal not done. My hope was after 1994 we would have such economic growth we all have to get everyone who is able into business to run it as there would be no choice, what a win-win scenario. But we seem to be on the same path as the rest of Africa with the general populace not being much better off than they were, and the elite becoming more distant from the man in the street. It just seems as soon as something goes wrong then we blame apartheid, racists and the British, instead of using the problems as learning opportunities to help everyone grow. Now if the principles of ubuntu, could be applied that would be great. Look at wikipedia article "a person is a person through (other) persons".

In essence instead of using the past to shape the future a more pragmatic approach of the future being shaped in the spirit of ubuntu.

Muzi this is my take as a white South African am I wrong in saying lets try and forget the past and get on with the future?

[Muzi Oscar]

Ian,

Its a bit more compicated than just saying forget the past and move on.
Lets say we do that and look at the following scenarios:
John's father got a foreman position in a factory in Germiston in 1981 because he is white, (against Sipho's father who had the same experience as an operator in the same factory as John's father). By 1994 John's father was a production manager and John completed his Matric in a private school. By 2009 John was a Middle Manager in a JSE listed company.
On the other hand, after matric in 1994 Sipho's father could not afford tertiary education for Sipho because the previous government did not allow his income to grow as John's father did. Now Sipho is working as a machine operator and in 2009 he just got promoted to Production Manager with the help of EE or AA policies. Even though he could not achieve what John has achieved, at least the poverty chain is broken as he can save for the education of his children.

Now, if in 1994 the new government said "forget about correcting the past" do you think Sipho's bosses who (not their fault, but being socially engineered by apartheid) trully believe that black people are not as capable as white would have promoted Sipho without being pointed to that direction. i doubt.... Apartheid will still haunt us, at least the current generation.

So, Ian, lets think a little bit deeper before formualting our beliefs.

[Marq]

Muzi - there you go again assuming that you know me and accusing me of things you know nothing about.

You state your belief in what these policies are and are not, yet you do not live on the other side of them. Sort of similar to your reasoning of living in Soweto Vs the white suburbs. I could say the same of your views and by what you say see that you are resentful and believe you are haunted by apartheid, whether you were there or not. I can also see that you do not understand the policies and their methods of implimentation, but this is not helpful to finding a solution of a way forward that will get everybody on track.

I lost my job as a result of black empowerment and bee policy. I can no longer get a job within the corporate world as a result of aa policy. My wife received the same deal. I became insolvent as a result and eventually came right thanks to friends. I have worked tables and done all the things you assumed me not to have done and as you quite rightly say, am stronger and wiser than before. My children battle to find their way mainly as a result of being white and the policies you say work for all, held against them.

I would say I am saddened at the situation rather than resentful and if you think I have not embraced your methods of transformation, maybe the situation above can tell you why. I am saying that transformation could have been handled differently and in a manner where all can embrace the situation. No one doubts the unfairness and situations that the past created, but all that is being done now is to blame the white man, no matter his background, whether he was there or wasn't and create the same scenario for him now.

The fact of the matter is that, here are two professional people, one with a masters degree, that are no longer required in your world of transformation. We have found a different way of life and do stuff that hopefully keeps us out of this one sided affair.

As one idea though, why instead of this insistence to take over these 'white' companies, is there not a trend to start up 'black' companies, taking advantage of the grants, networks and government backing that is out there and forming a general competition scenario which would eventually lead to synergistic practices benefiting all. Sure where there is limited resources another scenario has to be introduced but for the majority of situations, is this not a potential methodology that could work. If there are all the graduates that can no longer be absorbed, why can they not utilise their skills to start up their own firms.

[Muzi Oscar]

Marq,
Its your views that inform me that you are not willing to embrace transformation. And its a view that is shared by a majority of white South Africans. I work in a firm of about 120 permanent staff, 108 of which are white. So I am very familiar with these views. If you grew up in Soweto, Emlazi or KwaLanga then I will accept that you were not preveleged in any form. But if you grew up in so called "white" surburbs and went to a "white" school, then you are preveleged. And being preveleged does not mean you have things easy. You still had to work hard at school, impress in an interview and even work harder in your job or business. Being preveleged might mean you went to a better school, you had more than one meal a day, etc. to support you in doing the HARD bit that you had to do. And that prevelege came in many forms from having preveleged parents (who were put in better position by the government of their time).

There is nothing wrong with being preveleged, in fact everyone must be preveleged and people must brag about being preveleged because its good. BUT when you do not want other people to be preveleged too, it becomes a problem.

If you look at BEE, EE, AA, etc policies, they don't say fire white people and employ black people. Because if it was that easy, it would take a year to complete. What these policies ask for is for companies to pay attention to representation when recruiting. They ask companies to have long term transfomation plans and impliment them. These policies are there to level the play field. They don't say if you have unqualified black candidate competing with a white candidate, employ the black candidate. Instead they say if you have equally qualified and experienced candidates consider transfomation. If they were that forcefull we would be seeing the department of labour taking companies to court for breaking the law.

There is a group of white people that is lagging behind if you use the apartheid times as your "barometer". They are lagging behind now because the play field is a bit more level now then it was in the past. The white people that are pushing harder in the current scenario are doing even much better for themselves.

What I think you don't understand is that apartheid helped the poor white people more than the rich white people as the aim was to ensure there is no poor whites. Unlike apartheid, BEE, EE, AA, etc. help those who want to help themselves without really putting anyone in a disadvantage position. They acourage Equality and Fairness as oppose to the media belief that they discriminate unfairly.

The myth that no matter what your qualifications and experience is, if you are white you will be in a disadvantave is just that - a myth. Because if that was the case, you will also have white people with degrees working as waiters, petrol attendants, car washers, machine operators, etc.

And skills shortage problem is there because big business are no longer willing to absorb as much graduates as they did in the past. The ones they do absorb are not representative (politically) of the numbers that graduate.

The "majority" does not want to see "all whites have been removed from the land and from business, sitting in a poor unprivilege scenario". They want the privilege to be extended to them as well.