Whats up with webmail?

[Karenwhe]

Hi Shan,

This is a true sign that your advertising is working somewhere as this is where they would get your contact details from.

Ahmm...... no......not really. That is not what it means. You can crawl the web with software these days to collect data. I am sure you are aware of this.

It means that your people do not have ears or a good CRM for customer management. Have you ever heard of the term "listen to what the customer is saying). Because these people from webmail call, over and over and over and over and over and over again . When they have been told: over and over and over and over and over again, to please take the number off their database

This has happened to me so many times, I can't count anymore. I feel like YELLING AT THEM. But you see yelling doesn't help because it is not the fault of the poor telemarketer that your company hired.

If that is not enough, your telesales people press and press and press with template pitches (in other words, they do not listen to what you have to say, they do not listen when they are told NO and they carry on with their template pitch).

I was inclined at one point to blog about this on the mail and guardian, but I first posted here. If it carries on I will make sure it gets to the Sunday Times.

I have over 50 sites, guess how many calls do I get when they crawl the web and find the telephone number (there is by the way only one because the sites are only e-commerce front stores - which should make webmail job easy to take the no. off the DB)...... but when I tell them to take my number off the list..... do you think they have a central database.

The answer is NO.... then again.... maybe yes, but they refuse to take the number off.

Either way, bad practice.

Now, since all my interactions with webmail (lots of them), had all been "template answers" and "template pitches" do you think someone else had a different experience? Maybe, I doubt it. Maybe they had more tolerance or become numb by the end of it.

Now, let me tell you another story. Once upon a time (around a year ago), I entertained at my office one of your sales people (that was the first and last time). Very nice guy, too bad he doesn't understand about results nor case studies. And that is only because the meeting that was made was not made by me and he managed to get his foot in the front door.

I pressed and pressed for 1 (just one) case study for an SMB and a reference. Well the only thing he could come up with........... is how this is working for some short term insurance company. And he carried on and on and on and on about this.

Well, an SMB is not the size of an insurance company (short term or not).

Then he talked about branding etc. The poor guy didn't understand the first thing about what an SMB needs to dish out the kind of money he was asking in the meeting - 30K to be more accurate), nor could he prove it worked for someone else in the SMB sector, nor could he come up with one reference (gosh... I only asked for one).

But of course webmail kept finding my sites and kept each time calling for a different site, not knowing (or looking for that matter) that it is the same company and the same telephone number nor even looking at what the website does (as when they called they actually asked what we do?)

Great stuff isn't it?

When you get your potential customers angry, do you think they will become customers some day? And when potential customers complain about harassments, do you believe a company as big as webmail could actually deal with it? Or when you ask for a manager that one would speak to you? Or get back to you?

You would expect that, but I guess, not. So it all has to end up in a public forum at the end of the day. That simply sad.

I wonder

[bullfrog]

I wasn't going to post here but I've decided I might as well.

Remember I can't give a full account of the event as it didn't happen to me, nor did someone tell me exactly what happened.

I had a client who emailed me on every email address of mine that he had practically begging me not to give out any of his information to webmail and yes he was specific. He didn't say don't give out my details to any sales reps or something more generic, he said webmail. He only mentioned that they had a sales rep from webmail visit them and then decided to email me as quick as he could to make sure I don't give out any details.

Now obviously it's my policy not to give any of my clients details out to anyone without a court order. The point I'm trying to make is, why would he contact me to try make sure that they don't have any more of his details?

Something made this client of mine upset enough to contact me as quickly as he could on all communication channels short of giving me a call to make sure I don't give webmail any leads.

Now I can't give any more details as I have none and have not been contacted by webmail thus far, but from what I can tell, my client was not very impressed.

[Shan]

take my number off the list.

I appreciate your anger here Karen, specifically after engaging in a meeting with one of our reps. If you could send me your contact details, either via the forum or by mail shannon.cloete@iface.co.za, I will ensure that you are no longer contacted by one of our call centre staff.

The same will apply with anybody else experiencing this frustration.

[Marq]

Shan - Instead of offering to take a few forum members names off your list, rather sort your business out.

Get the picture - you have employed numerous telemarketers (or a call centre) who have the same data mined lists and the same untrained sales pitch annoying everyone they tackle.

Get the picture - your company has annoyed plenty of people. Its time to stop the platitudes and get on with another decent way of marketing your business properly.

[Dave A]

I think it is clear that there are some really unhappy people here about webmail. But let's consider for a moment:

• Shan has taken the time to join and reply
• He has offered to assist individual members to get what they want

He did not have to do either, and let's face the fact that there are many companies that "do not respond" (with due credit to hellopeter.com for that particular phrase).

Now we can stay perched on our high horse and go "they should be doing it anyway" or we can be gracious and express our appreciation for the effort - and thereby hopefully encourage a fellow member of this forum to re-examine their business systems with prospects that it might be rewarding.

After all, if you are going to be beaten with a stick whether you do "right" or "wrong", why not simply ignore the critics and carry on regardless?

I for one wish to thank Shan for the offer to intervene. I hope there are others who feel the same way.

[Marq]

Shannon only appears to have taken this opportunity on the forum to do some more marketing for webmail and made offers to take some members off their list.

There is no offer or discussion to have a look at webmails marketing methods, their apparent lack of results from the customer point of view and it would appear that as far as they are concerned there is no problem - in fact the opposite has occured -

we remain no1

etc. There is even a belief that because we do great marketing of our business's out there, it gives webmail the right to make irritating calls as a result.

As for the unpleasant calls you receive Ian, i will ensure that our entire telesales teams are notified that you are not interested and would not like to receive calls any longer. This is a true sign that your advertising is working somewhere as this is where they would get your contact details from.

Karen summed it up for us

Anyway, I hope that not many SA businesses will fall into this sales pitch and that one day the just stop harassing me.

A 'we are putting in a new system' story, does not help us out here and has nothing to do with the marketing issues at hand. If it does do this, then this fact has been left out of the replies. A new system will probably only help webmail from an internal business processes point of view, but I see no explanation of what a new system will really do for the end user.

One of the reasons I believe hellopeter does not work is due to the majority of 'responsive' companies, offering standard non believable replies with platitudes that they have no intention of actually of fulfilling. What I see happening here is no different. If I could see some positive feed back and a general discussion on telemarketing problems, contact information mining, returns on web advertising investment and stuff related to the webmail business from the webmail marketing experts themselves where they actually take into account the customers issues, then would that not be a better option.

From Duncans post on how does the forum help

People who have not even heard of this forum can benefit from the action that we take

Taking a few members off a harassment list would not help the business community at large. I see the forum contributing in the same way that is mentioned by Duncan. I would not like to think that it is there to create another hellopeter opportunity site, which is what has occurred here.

So it is not a question of beating members whether they are right or wrong. Rather it is the manner in which the issues are tackled and for me it still looks as if the high horse belongs to the marketing department of webmail. The only business system that I have reviewed from this thread, is to be careful as who I advertise with on the web, especially if webmail and easyinfo call, where I should train all staff to ignore them. Somehow I do not believe that this is what is supposed to be the outcome from Shannon's involvement on the forum.

[Shan]

As Karen said it Marg and i agree. Thanks for the usefull post.



Firstly, may ask what encounters you have had with either Webmail or Easy Info that has left you in this frame of mind?



Secondly, the answers you see in my initial reply are addressing all the concerned raised in this forum, not just the workings of our call center.
Which leads me to say that the new Webmail that should be launched by the end of June will have benefits to both our user base as well as advertising clientèle.Features of which i cannot explain until launched as i will not be able to give justice to the fantastic features available, where after i do no see any reason why you will not want to use it yourself.



Lastly, your concerns:

Get the picture - you have employed numerous telemarketers (or a call
centre) who have the same data mined lists and the same untrained sales pitch annoying everyone they tackle.

This is a common issue and the only thing we try and do is where clients are complaining we will try and assist by addressing the telesales team and making a note not to call your company. As the leads they receive are from numerous sources aling with ads currently placed in other media, it is difficult to guarantee that you wont still have a call from time to time but will definitely improve on the amount of calls received.

Get the picture - your company has annoyed plenty of people. Its time to stop the platitudes and get on with another decent way of marketing your business properly.

Our business model is tried and tested and delivers results not only for us but for our clientele too. This doesn't however mean that we wouldn't be tempted to try any further suggestions you may have on condition that they yield equal or better results.

[daveob]

Our business model is tried and tested and delivers results not only for us but for our clientele too. This doesn't however mean that we wouldn't be tempted to try any further suggestions you may have on condition that they yield equal or better results.

THIS is the BOTTOM LINE. The way I see it is that they will continue with the currect methods ( window dressed with the "new" label ) for as long as it works and continues to deliver results.

And if you do "come up with a better idea" then they will be "tempted to try it". Nowhere does it say that they won't, at the same time, still continue with the current methods.

And I'm convinced that nothing that a few of us say will have any effect. Let's face it - there are enough desperate businesses out there that are willing to spend their last few bucks to acheive the miraculous results that the webmail reps are promising (see this first-hand myself) - they are desperate and are really needing to beleive what the rep tells them.

And as long as that situation remains, they will continue along this marketing path.

And can you blame they ? No. As a business person yourself, you would be mad to stop the main source of your company's income just because of a few complaints. You'll manage the flak as best you can and still watch the bucks roll into you account each day.

[Marq]

Great - this is also a start to discussing the actual marketing side although there still seems to be a huge reluctance to admit that there is a problem with webmails telemarketing tactics or to to try something different. Again we are hearing of new stuff coming but its all a secret and now its in June not May. mmmmmm?

Shannon - If you are insistent on the telemarketing route then here is a simple off the cuff solution to the gathering of names and calling of people. Set up a central database where all the information is gathered and then work from that, with switches to determine who has been called by whom and when and what the results are. If your telemarketers just have 'lists' and at the end of the day they report - called 200 people, found 5 interested and made one sale - would it not be a plan to know who they were calling, from what area, what industry, what calibre and then insure that those same people were not called again the following day by a new telemarketer. Just 'making a note' not to call that company or this one seems a bit inadequate.

I don't know what the final stats are on this method of marketing ones product. The above 200/5/1 seems to be an average ratio from what I can gather. One of the considerations would be the effects of telemarketing on the brand impact. It would seem that telemarketing is a brand adverse activity. Every person that you speak to who does not buy from you and who you manage to annoy in those few seconds are likely to have a negative impression on your brand. A bad brand impression over time like we are seeing with webmail can be a killer. Look at the forums for example - the old annoy one person and he will tell 11 people doesn't work anymore. We are now sharing this experience with 1700 people (round about there isn't it Dave?). I belong to 2 other forums as well, and go into a few others - so now how many people are aware of some sort of problem here and are going to decline the call from anyone saying the magic words.

As marketing personnel will point out - it works - and is one of the cheaper value for money/return options available to get product out there. The question for me is - Is there not a greater intangible expense that is not being counted at this stage of the products life cycle? What would that expense consist of and how big is it really?

Refer to the States side where they have a system set up by the Federal Trade Commission in 2003 - called 'Do not call list'. You register your details with the commission and thereafter any telemarketers that violate the rules can liable to a fine of 11,000 dollars per incident. The interesting number for me was that they have 85 million registered Americans on this list. If you looks at the overall potential market over there - 85 million is a huge percentage that are saying - we do not want and do not like this form of marketing, please leave us alone.

Most people claim to detest telemarketers. A widely cited poll by Time magazine found that telemarketing ranked number four on the list of the worst ideas of the 20th century.[1] Many people now screen their calls with their answering machines or caller id before answering at all. There are Web sites that provide information on how to avoid, defeat, humiliate, and otherwise annoy telemarketers. Some, such as the National Consumers League, provide relatively straightforward information. " Even the industry journal Telemarketing Magazine, (since renamed Call Center Solutions) reported that 70% of residents polled in a national survey "considered telemarketing to be an invasion of privacy."[2]

Ben Finley, "Government Working on National Telemarketing Do-Not-Call List," Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service, Washington Dateline, (September 22, 2002); Robert Bulmash, "Q: Should Government Protect Your Dinner Hour from Annoying Telemarketers?" Insight on the News, Symposium, News World Communications, Inc., (March 17, 2003) p. 4.

Coupled with this inherent dislike for any person wishing to earn a wage via this mechanism, are other factors such as being called numerous times by the same company, bad scripts and bad delivery of those scripts. These other factors just do not seem to be addressed and certain companies keep their poor reputation up there just because at the end of the day the statistics show that they are 'successful'. One would think that at some stage they would run out of people to call, but fortunately for them the queue appears endless.

Our business model is tried and tested and delivers results

I have only been on the receiving end of telemarketers who have been a prime example to me, as to how not to run a business. As a result I have never dared to venture into this form of marketing. Shannon, perhaps you would like to share your successful business model with us and show us how it all hangs together with the end results and prove that I have it all wrong.

Perhaps you could also share with us the alternative marketing methods you have tried. The various methods of delivering the product in your scripts. Maybe a discussion on banner advertising - does it really work?

Try here
http://www.marketingpunk.com/2005/11...man_batte.html
for some good pointers in telemarketing
and here
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_b.../09/index.html for some more views.

[Marq]

This list thing reminds me of MartyAllen and Steve Rossi (a comedy duo from the 60/70's for you younger folk) series on Hello Dere.

The one is playing the boxer Rocky Graciano the other the interviewer.

Goes along the lines of
Rocky - I have a list of everyone I can beat.
Interviewer - I can beat you
Rocky - Are you sure?
Interviewer - Yes of course I'm sure.
Rocky - OK - then I'll take you off my list.