Welding socket 5 pin

[GCE]

Hi

Has anybody had an argument over a 5 pin welding socket that has been fed with a 4 core cabtyre and only live 1 , 2 , 3 and earth connected - The neutral point on the 5 pin socket is not connected .

We are saying that it is illegal and cannot be signed off on a COC as the neutral pin is not connected and if somebody plugs in a machine that requires a neutral ( which you would assume is there) and the machine is damaged due to a floating neutral he is going to hold me liable .

His return answer is " I never plug machines in that need neutral "

He has now asked for the regulation that says a neutral must be on a 5 pin socket - I don't think there is one as it is common practice and electrical correct to put in a neutral wire otherwise I would use a 4 pin socket.

Anybody know of a regulation ? or how to win the argument amicable which is unfortunately not a strong point of mine.

[Dylboy]

For now I can think of perhaps labelling a lot on the socket saying no neutral wired and warning labels. And stating on the CoC and pictures.

Will try see the regs if I can find anything. Only think to mind is that if there is an earth terminal it shall be connected but nothing on the neutral side I can think of yet.

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[Dylboy]

What about the item saying correctly installed, section 3 I think of the CoC.

In the case of the 5 pin with no Neautral it is not correct lly installed

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[Actrox]

You wouldn't allow a 3 pin wall socket, without an earth or neutral connected would you? This is no different for me. He should just replace it with a 4-pin welding plug.

[Isetech]

We have a similar situation, I installed the old 4 pin orange welding socket outlets in a factory back in 2006 (lots of them around the property) then someone decided to change the law and now we are not suppose to install new 4 pin socket outlets, only replace old sockets if they are damaged. Once again just smile and do what needs to be done to keep the factory going so that they can generate an inclome and pay the bills.

What do we do, upgrade all the sockets outlets to 5 pin, because we cant install 1 new 4 pin welding plugs, which would require all the cabling on the entire property to upgraded to 5 core.

We have a choice, rewire the entire property so that we can fit one new 4 pin ? If the company had a tax problem and was making more money they could spend on overheads, then it would be a great idea for the next scheduled maintenance upgrade.

With staff retrenchment due to start soon thanks to the load shedding and the massive cost to run a generator (which should also be registered as an SSEG by the way) not forgetting the ridiculous fees the company would be punished with if they add solar to try recover and reduce diesel cost to keep the machine operating, for now the 4 pin plugs are here to stay.

[Isetech]

In the same factory we have a similar challenge, a machine arrives, one of the employees decides to call his mate who is a spakie to connect a machine which is only there to be tested and repaired (not electrical).

The sparkie arrives and connects the machine using a 4 pin plug top so that they can run it to test the fault components, because the machine requires a neutral, the sparkie bridges the neutral and earth, imagine that it trips the ELU. he then goes and tells y cusoter that I am an idiot and dont know what I am doing. My customers contacts me to tell me I am an idiot and need to come to the factory and fix my dodgey wiring which is causing the ELU to trip. That people was where the fight started.

For the record, all the plugs in the factory are still orange 4 pin socket outlets.

[Isetech]

Back to the original question, If you install a "5 pin socket oullet", it must have a neutral connected, because the test report would be incomplete and thereefore you wouldnt be able to isse a COC.

The "5 pin plug top" might not require a neutral depending on the "appliance" it is cnnected to.

[GCE]

We have a similar situation, I installed the old 4 pin orange welding socket outlets in a factory back in 2006 (lots of them around the property) then someone decided to change the law and now we are not suppose to install new 4 pin socket outlets, only replace old sockets if they are damaged. Once again just smile and do what needs to be done to keep the factory going so that they can generate an inclome and pay the bills.

.

Regulations allow for new to be fitted when extending existing installation ( pasted below)
Have you thought about the reason for the change ?

SANS 10142-1
6.15.1.1.2 Socket-outlets intended for the connection of industrial type
equipment such as welding machines, shall conform to the dimensions given
in SANS 60309-1 and SANS 60309-2. NOVA and DIN socket-outlets may
only be fitted as replacement of, and in extension to, an installation where
such socket-outlets exist.

What do we do, upgrade all the sockets outlets to 5 pin, because we cant install 1 new 4 pin welding plugs, which would require all the cabling on the entire property to upgraded to 5 core.
We have a choice, rewire the entire property so that we can fit one new 4 pin ?

Does not make sense - you changing 4 pin for 4 pin - why do you need to rewire - If you install 5 pin instead of 4 pin then I would understand

With staff retrenchment due to start soon thanks to the load shedding and the massive cost to run a generator (which should also be registered as an SSEG by the way) not forgetting the ridiculous fees the company would be punished with if they add solar to try recover and reduce diesel cost to keep the machine operating, for now the 4 pin plugs are here to stay

Have you actually done the exercise - we look at a small Brewery and installing 24Kw of panels which is about 20% of there usage , registering the system , being put on the TOU tarrif the savings are around 50% of there present electricity bill - Why , because we make the system work for them with little to no interference in the operation.

You also need to be careful placing solar behind a generator unless it has a controller to accommodate solar - Generally Solar gets turned off when running behind a genset

[GCE]

Back to the original question, If you install a "5 pin socket oullet", it must have a neutral connected, because the test report would be incomplete and thereefore you wouldnt be able to isse a COC.

The "5 pin plug top" might not require a neutral depending on the "appliance" it is cnnected to.

I used the regulations pasted below to justify my refusal to connect 5 pin sockets without a neutral - Basically I will get incorrect readings for the point of consumption and then incorrect equipment selection

Still not sure why I had to go through the trouble of looking for a regulations when it is just common sense , but suppose which now a days is in short supply


SANS 10142-1
8.5 Inspection
8.5.1 Normally, inspection precedes testing and should be done with the
installation isolated. Inspect the installation to confirm that equipment has
been selected and installed in accordance with this part of SANS 10142 and
that equipment is not damaged so as to impair its safety.
8.5.2 Complete the inspection table in the test report by confirming the
statements in item1) to 4) with "Yes" in the appropriate block. "No" answers to
the following statements will prevent the issuing of the report:
a) conductors are of the correct rating and current-carrying capacity for the
protective devices and connected load,
Pay attention to voltage rating, voltage drop, current-carrying
capacity and short-circuit capacity.
b) components have been correctly selected and installed, and are accessible
where necessary, Amdt 1
c) disconnecting devices (isolators) are correctly located and that all
switchgear switches the phase conductors, and
d) circuits, fuses, switching devices, terminals, earth leakage units,
circuit-breakers and distribution boards are correctly and permanently
identified, marked or labelled.

8.6.13 Polarity at points of consumption
Ensure that
a) all single-pole switching devices, fuses and circuit-breakers have been
connected in the phase conductor,
b) the phase terminals in fixed appliances and in all single-phase
socket-outlets have been connected to the phase conductor,
c) the centre contact of each Edison-screw lamp holder is connected to the
phase conductor, and
d) phase rotation and identification is maintained for three-phase systems on
the supply sides of all distribution boards.

[Isetech]

This is an engineering factory with lots of welding machines, there is no need for 5 pin socket outlets for the general operation of the factory, we do rearrange the factory on occasion to accomodate work flow, that's when we fit "new" sockets outlets, we never daisy chain or extend the circuits for the 4 pin sockets.

As I mentioned to the person who required a neutral to test the machine (special application, not part of the general operation) , if they need a 5 pin socket outlet, they must pay the cost to fit a 4 pole Earth leakage (required for a 5 pin) unit in the the DB, the 5 core cabling to the test location and the 5 pin socket outlet and 5 pin plug top or he could just connect the machine to one of the NWI isolators close by, which "all" installed as a standard with a 30 amp triple pole isolator, 4 mmsq x 4 +E,a neutral termination and earth stud.

If he was smart he would have gone to the wholesaler picked up a small control transfomer and used it to test the machine, Like I ended up doing.

Lessons learnt from these experiences, dont make a big scene and try make a fool of a person without getting " all " your ducks in a row.

I had another one a while ago, I was asked to asssit with a challenge one of the machine suppliers where experiencing. the electric magnet for a CNC lathe was tripping the breaker in the DB, the supplier removed the new product and returned it to Germany to be replaced. They responsed, indicating that there was nothing wrong with the electro magnet.

That is when I was called in to asssit, the first thing I did was go to the DB and check what breaker was supplying the magnet, 20 amp 3 ka standard white CBI breaker, that was where the fight started. I didnt have to waste any more time on site. the factory sparkie made some stupid comment about me as I walked away. Who cares, the breaker was replaced with the correctly size, curve and fault level for the DB and the company were the magnet was installed was billed for ALL the expenses.