Geyser earthing and bonding

[GCE]

The toppies needs to have headlamps when called out at 2am in the morning the point i am trying to make is you wont know about an earth fault if it doesn't go through the RCD and that is a safety risk to owner changing a light bulb or to you as contractor.
Why would you need to change a stove every 6 months should it be RCD protected are you now going to change your geyser every six months because it is now RCD protected. All my curcuits in my house has been RCD protected for the last 25 years and i had very few "nuisance tripping" issues but on a few occasions when it tripped it was a pot boiling over on the stove(solid plates) that it is a good thing right it protected my wife in that instance. Oven element did trip RCD after 15 years because it needed replacement. The safety factor protecting all curcuits outweighs the discomfort factor.
In your last paragraph you seems to suggest that i was disrespectful towards GCE not at all i simply saying we all learn every day unless the toppies feel they don't learn anymore by the way i am also in the toppie crowd. But still where this all started a few presentation slides posted now i am made out to be disrespectful. I am sure i will be learning a lot of new things in this forum from GCE and other toppies and non toppies
Peace ✌️ out brother all good

RCD were originally introduce to protect portable appliances especially the leads to portable appliances because the risk was always there that the earth connection could come loose or some that did not have an earth.
The rcd would pick up an imbalance on live and neutral and trip.

Fixed appliances and general wiring don't have that problem and if earthing is carried out correctly there is absolutely no reason to put them on RCD. On an earth fault the circuit breaker will trip.

According to my sources the RCD on a geyser was strongly motivated by one person sitting on the technical workgroup and that person should have retired long time ago from the industry
There was no need to put geysers on RCD , the only time it becomes a problem is if the earthing is incorrect.

[Isetech]

RCD were originally introduce to protect portable appliances especially the leads to portable appliances because the risk was always there that the earth connection could come loose or some that did not have an earth.
The rcd would pick up an imbalance on live and neutral and trip.

Fixed appliances and general wiring don't have that problem and if earthing is carried out correctly there is absolutely no reason to put them on RCD. On an earth fault the circuit breaker will trip.

According to my sources the RCD on a geyser was strongly motivated by one person sitting on the technical workgroup and that person should have retired long time ago from the industry
There was no need to put geysers on RCD , the only time it becomes a problem is if the earthing is incorrect.

Let me get this right, so one person can control the entire SANS regulations content, did all the sheep just bleat , maybe because they couldn't come up with a better proposal ?

I am surprised at your response, I can only assume you dont do much domestic work or domestic COC's. People cant even fill out the form correctly, now you expect everyone to bond and earth geysers correctly.

When last did you look at a geyser replaced by approved insurance plumber?

I find geysers with the wire twisted around the pipe with no clamp and and no earth continuity conductor.

From my experience in the field, and the crap workmanship I have to deal with, everything should be on earth leakage for the customers safety.

[GCE]

Let me get this right, so one person can control the entire SANS regulations content, did all the sheep just bleat , maybe because they couldn't come up with a better proposal ?

I am surprised at your response, I can only assume you dont do much domestic work or domestic COC's. People cant even fill out the form correctly, now you expect everyone to bond and earth geysers correctly.

When last did you look at a geyser replaced by approved insurance plumber?

I find geysers with the wire twisted around the pipe with no clamp and and no earth continuity conductor.

From my experience in the field, and the crap workmanship I have to deal with, everything should be on earth leakage for the customers safety.

We cant keep making rules and adding requirements just because we expect people to do crap work.
If we stop doing that and people get shocked and a couple of people die then maybe people will stop hiring the ones that take short cuts

And let the contractor sit in court on a murder charge then you will see an increase in quality work .

[Isetech]

We cant keep making rules and adding requirements just because we expect people to do crap work.
If we stop doing that and people get shocked and a couple of people die then maybe people will stop hiring the ones that take short cuts

And let the contractor sit in court on a murder charge then you will see an increase in quality work .

I wish I could live in your Truman bubble.

The reality is the workmanship is not going to get any better, you sound like you have been around the block a few time, have you seen an improvement in the industry in the past 10 years.

We need special solutions for special people, any sensible person would tell you not to walk on the freeway, there is a bus stop/taxi rank on the N2 , if you dont believe me ask Dave, its on the freeway just up from his offices

It sounds like the old man is a lot wiser than you give him credit, maybe its a good thing he hasn't retired yet.

I would say rather safe than sorry, so putting the whole house on earth leakage, including the stove, geyser, gate motor and everything else which has 230/400 Volts may be a slight inconvenience but in the long run way safer, is that not the aim of the SANS 10142. If you go right to the top of document, you find it under the introduction.

Introduction

The aim of this part of SANS 10142 is to ensure that people, animals and
property are protected from hazards that can arise from the operation of an
electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions. An electrical
installation has to provide protection against:

This why, like most things in this country, I just smile and laugh at regs like the ZA plug, would I rather follow a ridiculous rule like the ZA plug or create a safer environment for the customer. I think everyone who follows this platform will know my answer.

[Alfred M]

I wish I could live in your Truman bubble.

The reality is the workmanship is not going to get any better, you sound like you have been around the block a few time, have you seen an improvement in the industry in the past 10 years.

We need special solutions for special people, any sensible person would tell you not to walk on the freeway, there is a bus stop/taxi rank on the N2 , if you dont believe me ask Dave, its on the freeway just up from his offices

It sounds like the old man is a lot wiser than you give him credit, maybe its a good thing he hasn't retired yet.

I would say rather safe than sorry, so putting the whole house on earth leakage, including the stove, geyser, gate motor and everything else which has 230/400 Volts may be a slight inconvenience but in the long run way safer, is that not the aim of the SANS 10142. If you go right to the top of document, you find it under the introduction.

Introduction

The aim of this part of SANS 10142 is to ensure that people, animals and
property are protected from hazards that can arise from the operation of an
electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions. An electrical
installation has to provide protection against:

This why, like most things in this country, I just smile and laugh at regs like the ZA plug, would I rather follow a ridiculous rule like the ZA plug or create a safer environment for the customer. I think everyone who follows this platform will know my answer.

Isetech with what you said i 100% agree safety is a much higher priority as comfort well said thank you. That is the reason UK is strongly leaning towards RCBO's

[Isetech]

I carried out a test report which identified a lot of code violations, too many to list in the time frame allocated for the test. So an estimate was submitted and we are busy doing the repairs. I cannot understand how companies can do test reports and issue COC's unless the building is unoccupied and every single part of the installations is accessible.

While carrying out COC audits, I have noticed "no access" is a common excuse.

The geyser wiring and bonding was one of the violations on this site, which looks like it was replaced recently.

You can see before the geyser was replaced there was an earth wire from the meter box to the mains water copper pipe, that has been cut, and the wire is just hanging loose. A piece of the copper pipe has been cut and replaced with polycop. Now you have to ask yourself, the mains water is galvanised steel, which connected to a copper pipe , which is connected to polycop which is then at some point connected to the old copper pipe again, then connected to the geyser and out the other side of the geyser still using copper, do you bond the piece of copper pipe?

To add to the mix, an additional geyser has been installed and piped using Pex, which is connected to a piece of copper pipe on the side of the building.

I noticed the bonding strap is still hanging on the pipe in 2 locations but not secured.

The geyser has a piece of surfix hanging from the geyser isolator to the geyser (3 m long), no gland on the terminal cover, which is a common site after the insurance approved plumber has replaced the geyser.

I have a huge earthing issue on this site, old steel conduit is used for earth continuity. So the simple solution is going to extend the original earth wire hanging loose to the closest electrical point in the building which will be the old stove isolator point and secure it to the metal box or remove the locknut and fit an earth tag and hope the pipe between the stove and the DB is not cut and removed.

At the DB I will fit an earth bar and run a 4 mm earth wire to the geyser, from the geyser to the outbuilding and any other points I feel could improve the general earthing of the building. I might even knock in a earth rod or 2 at the pool DB and maybe at the outbuilding DB. All the old fuse boxes will be replaced with circuit breakers and earth leakage in each DB.

2 expensive mistakes I have learnt this year,

1/ Never offer to fix an alarm system wiring, just replace all the wiring and dont be a putts and leave the old wiring in place.

2/ When you are called out to do an inspection report on a house with fuse boxes, the amount of faults you are going to find will cost more to repair than rewire.