Geyser earthing and bonding

[GCE]

GCE learn something .Look at the person's credentials who did this presentation!!!?

I was not querying his credentials - Rather take the time to look at the regs I have pasted and tell me where I have quoted the regs incorrectly

If what I have pasted is correct then query the presenter

To me it would appear that the presenter has an opinion that does not take the regulations into account -

With regards to learning something - I did , I read the statements you made and went to check the regulations - I differ from your/presenters opinion and backed myself with stating the relevant regulations .
So Alfred M - go read the regulations and show me why my statements are incorrect

[Alfred M]

I was not querying his credentials - Rather take the time to look at the regs I have pasted and tell me where I have quoted the regs incorrectly

If what I have pasted is correct then query the presenter

To me it would appear that the presenter has an opinion that does not take the regulations into account -

With regards to learning something - I did , I read the statements you made and went to check the regulations - I differ from your/presenters opinion and backed myself with stating the relevant regulations .
So Alfred M - go read the regulations and show me why my statements are incorrect

No no i never said you quoted or interpreted the regs incorrectly all i am saying is that we need to be open to new and better ways to do our job nothing in the presentation falls outside of the regs it is just taken a step further to ensure proper bonding and earthing. To me it would be safer to use 2.5 mm earth conductor even though your bonding resistance falls within the specifications of the regs. And to Derlyn that
jumps to your defence bonding is to bring all exposed metal parts to the same potential and an earth conductor carries fault currents to the main earthing bar in the db. There is a difference in a geyser compared to socket wiring extra care needs to be taken on any electrical installations where water is involved and socket outlets are not dedicated curcuits but geysers are. To take a example that is in the regs it is not compulsory for lights to go through a rcd to me all curcuit breakers on a db should go through an rcd makes the installation much safer and it is all about safety. Your next question may be "what about nuisance tripping" nuisance tripping is an actual fault and needs to be addressed, by using more than one rcd critical curcuits can have their own rcd. There is always room for improvement and learning we all learn new better ways every day unless you are stuck in a rut. Now guys explain to me on the few slides i have posted what is not inline with the regulations.Remember there are different ways of doing things but there is always "best practice". The regs also states that any electrical installation needs to be reasonably safe so meaning that with application of good practice you could make it safer.

[GCE]

Hi

I have no problem with doing more than the regulations require in the interests of best practice and safety.

I assume you are attending the unit standards so that you can write paper 1 and 2 to obtain an Installation License.

If the question is asked - " Do you require an external bonding conductor to bond hot and cold water pipes - True or False " You will answer True , because that is what you have been taught when in actual fact the answer is false. You are now 1 point less.

I have a problem when presenters are teaching opinions rather than sticking to the regulations. There is a huge failure rate on Paper 1 and 2 and I believe it is because presenters are teaching opinions not regulations.

I have the same problem with presenters teaching refresher course on SANS 10142-1 where they tend to give there opinions and the guys go back to the work place and carry out inspections for COC , sign them off and when the AIA comes along and fails certain aspects that same presenter when tackled then says " it is only small bits that you have to fix , just go back and correct it."
The presenter is not losing the money .He stands in front of the class and acts like the expert until he is tackled head on and then ducks and dives.
I have witnessed it with a contractor that came horribly short because he trusted the presenter .
I have tackled that presenter and he still continues teaching the crap that he does because he believes that he is the expert.

Yes , I have a huge problem with presenters that teach opinions

[Isetech]

The geyser combo was a nice addition to the circuit breaker catalogue, just imagine how cool it would be if you could buy a geyser combo with built in RCBO function and even better arc fault protection

That's me done for today, I can hear the generator running out of fuel. 2 days and still no power.

[Derlyn]

I agree 100% with GCE's reply to all the points raised. GCE responded with the appropriate regulations in SANS 10143. Now let the presenter of the psentation back up hi's statements with the appropriate regs.

Maybe, just maybe you are confusing an earth continuity conductor with a bonding conductor.

[Derlyn]

Just one more point.
The cable manufacturer's manufacture the cable taking everything into account.

I doubt very much that the manufacturers of FTE would make a cable with an ECC that cannot be used for what it is intended to be.

What makes the earthing of a geyser different to that of a socket outlet ? Nothing.

[Dylboy]

I did the Unit Standard course in April and it was heavily based on their opinion. So much so I did what was needed to be done but took a lot what they said with a pinch of salt and i have done my own research or asked and applied my own understanding to what the Sans book says.

Even asked a couple questions here with what was said there haha.

I argued a lot with them on the Sans book with regards to P1 and P2 as well. I was asked to actually speak more in private to not confuse the other students who may not know what I'm on about and then I was worried as these other students have down P1 and P2 so should know what words and topics I am on.

Best thing i took from it was to CYA...Cover your A....





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[Dylboy]

Lastly the Unit Standard course is not like course work or a set standard... It's basically complete a bunch of CoC's to what ever the teacher teaches...

There is no STANDARD at all, not like how in Matric across the country every one did the same maths sylabus. (Albeit the 2 types of the IEB and CAP or what ever ) but none the less all the same sylabus.

I spoke of this in another thread how there is no same standard so every single person is different and nothing is common....

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[Derlyn]

Us toppies with 40 years plus experience in the field, not in the classroom, know what it's like attending to an earth fault at 2am and the whole installation is in darkness because some bright spark has fed all the lights through the earth leakage. Alfred M, it is safer for the lights to remain on, should there be an earth fault.

I can also imagine you buying a new stove every six months when it starts tripping the earth leakage. New stoves are sold with specific instructions not to connect them through earth leakage, for a good reason. It's called nuisance tripping. Yes, my brother, there exists something called nuisance tripping.

Most of us toppies who are active here on the forum are not as you say, stuck in a rut. We all have the latest copies of sans 10142 and strive to keep up to date with the latest regulations.

We do however know where to draw the line as far as safety is concerned. One day when you start quoting against your competitors, you will realize that if you don't draw that line in the right place, you gonna come short. You either not gonna get any work or you not gonna show a profit, one of the two.

I would never have the audacity to tell someone like GCE to learn something. Rather learn from him as much as you can. It will come in handy and that's a promise.

Peace out.

[Alfred M]

Us toppies with 40 years plus experience in the field, not in the classroom, know what it's like attending to an earth fault at 2am and the whole installation is in darkness because some bright spark has fed all the lights through the earth leakage. Alfred M, it is safer for the lights to remain on, should there be an earth fault.

I can also imagine you buying a new stove every six months when it starts tripping the earth leakage. New stoves are sold with specific instructions not to connect them through earth leakage, for a good reason. It's called nuisance tripping. Yes, my brother, there exists something called nuisance tripping.

Most of us toppies who are active here on the forum are not as you say, stuck in a rut. We all have the latest copies of sans 10142 and strive to keep up to date with the latest regulations.

We do however know where to draw the line as far as safety is concerned. One day when you start quoting against your competitors, you will realize that if you don't draw that line in the right place, you gonna come short. You either not gonna get any work or you not gonna show a profit, one of the two.

I would never have the audacity to tell someone like GCE to learn something. Rather learn from him as much as you can. It will come in handy and that's a promise.

Peace out.

The toppies needs to have headlamps when called out at 2am in the morning the point i am trying to make is you wont know about an earth fault if it doesn't go through the RCD and that is a safety risk to owner changing a light bulb or to you as contractor.
Why would you need to change a stove every 6 months should it be RCD protected are you now going to change your geyser every six months because it is now RCD protected. All my curcuits in my house has been RCD protected for the last 25 years and i had very few "nuisance tripping" issues but on a few occasions when it tripped it was a pot boiling over on the stove(solid plates) that it is a good thing right it protected my wife in that instance. Oven element did trip RCD after 15 years because it needed replacement. The safety factor protecting all curcuits outweighs the discomfort factor.
In your last paragraph you seems to suggest that i was disrespectful towards GCE not at all i simply saying we all learn every day unless the toppies feel they don't learn anymore by the way i am also in the toppie crowd. But still where this all started a few presentation slides posted now i am made out to be disrespectful. I am sure i will be learning a lot of new things in this forum from GCE and other toppies and non toppies
Peace ✌️ out brother all good