Something you need to be careful ... people cut a hole in the side of the cupboard ... which would expose all the wires ... that creates a new problem ... and some people dont secure the hob nor oven ... once again makes it open wiring.
Something you need to be careful ... people cut a hole in the side of the cupboard ... which would expose all the wires ... that creates a new problem ... and some people dont secure the hob nor oven ... once again makes it open wiring.
Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.
Looking at the oven specs ... max power 11 amps ... in theory I could fit a 15 amps fuse and use 1.5 mm twin+e
The hob specs indicate max power of 29 amps ... a 30 amp fuse would be required with 4 mm wire.
At least I am in the clear ... I used a 6 mm wire into a junction box and 6 mm to each appliance ... just a mission working with the big cable ... now I know why I dont put my hand up all the time for these type of jobs.
The free standing stove max power is 35 amps ... a 40 amp mcb with 6 mm wire would be required.
Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.
ANY ADVICE WELCOME
Busy with a kitchen refurbishing job.
The plans call for a socket outlet for the gas stove / electric oven combo unit.
The stove has a plugtop.
Photo's attached.
What do I do ?
Derlyn.
The gas regs insist on a isolator which in my opinion is playing outside of their field of expertise , but unfortunately it is written as such and the gas installer could refuse to issue a gas COC . ( reg below)Originally Posted by Derlyn
If you now install a socket and the gas coc is not forthcoming then you could be held responsible to rectify at your own cost.
To me it is pathetic that they stipulate as such but it is out of our hands .
Extract from SANS 10187-1
9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connection
The electrical regulations on freestanding stoves allow a 16Amp socket if the rating of the oven is below 16Amp
I would send an email to the owner informing them of the conflict between the regulations and the possible consequences of installing a socket vs a stove isolator.
If they respond and insist on a socket at least you cannot be held responsible at a later stage if the gas guys do not want to issue a certificate .
Make sure it is in writing and keep it as a sale may go down in 12months time and it may come back to bite.
Extract from SANS 10142-1
6.16.3.3 Stove connection
6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated above 16 A
shall be connected through
a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1 and of dimensions
as given in SANS 337 (a maximum of 45 A single-phase and 16 A per
phase for three phase), or
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a stove
coupler is used.
NOTE 2 For a three-phase coupler, the earth connection needs special
consideration.
b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 60309-1 (industrial type) with
30 mA earth leakage protection, however, the use of industrial type socketoutlets
is not recommended for stove connections.
Total electrical power consumption is 2900 Watts. +- 12 Amps.
Have once again confirmed with the gas installers and they are happy with a socket outlet.
Next question.
When we inspect an installation to issue an ELECTRICAL COC, do we not inspect it according to SANS 10142-1 ?
If it conforms to SANS 10142 -1, Municipal bylaws, electrical regulations in OHSA and manufacturer specs, I issue the COC. It's compliant.
Should the gas guy need something altered on the electrical installation, he is welcome to make use of an electrical contractor of his choice to make the necessary changes. It does not have to be me. Seeing that he is insisting on something being altered, it's up to him or the seller to have it done.
During 2018 some time I had the same issue when a gas inspector insisted I move the isolator.
This happened after I had already delivered the COC to the transferring attorneys.
I refused.
Here is the email I sent to the attorneys after they also tried to force me. I refused.
Hi Glenda
I have noted Mr Schoeman's comments and need to respond.
Firstly, I am not being difficult ...... Let me explain.
Point 2 of removing the isolator and fitting a blank cover in it's place would cause the electrical installation to be non compliant.
It would have been possible had the distribution board been in the kitchen, but on this particular installation, the DB is in the garage.
Our regulations state that the isolator must be in the same room as the appliance.
The only other option to satisfy the gas technician, in this case, was to move the isolator.
This would have entailed the following.
Cutting into the wall with an angle grinder in order to reposition a new box and conduit. This process creates a mammoth amount of dust throughout the house. We then have to contend with claims from tenants that their expensive electronic equipment has been ruined as a result of the dust.
We then have to cement in the new enclosure and conduit and wait 2 days for same to dry before installing the isolator. After installing the isolator we have to repaint the cemented area and this often ends up with us having to paint the whole wall as a match in paint colour is virtually impossible when the existing paint is old.
Should there be tiling involved, which is often the case, we have to get a tiler to come and make good.
ALL of the above has happened to me in the past, whilst moving a stove isolator at the request of the gas technician and I have had to bear the costs.
It might sound easy on paper to just move the switch, but in practice it's not that quick and easy. There are the above ramifications that need to be taken into account. I'm talking from experience.
The gas technician is quite entitled to make use of the services of an electrician to move the isolator so as to comply with the gas laws, however, I shy away from this job for the above reasons.
I note that the gas technician has issued the gas compliance certificate with an explanatory note.
I have not read this note but sincerely hope that it does not contain the words D. Stuart or Derek's Electrical. Should my reputation be harmed in any way as a result of any explanatory note mentioning my name or my business name without my consent, there will be serious legal ramifications for whoever issued same.
Going forward, should the same circumstances as 5 Place Gonubie occur, my stance will remain the same.
Hope you understand
Kind regards ... Derek.
Never heard from them again.
If ever I come across a dedicated plug that's too close to a tap, I'm gonna do the same as what the gas guys are doing
and refuse to issue a coc until the tap has been moved.
Sans 10142-1 ED3 has had a clause added under 5.2.4 as pasted below - You need to take it into account if there is a gas stove in position
5.2.4 Positioning of equipment
Electrical equipment which, under normal conditions will be
a) exposed to flammable or explosive gas, vapour, dust or liquid, or to
external influences such as direct sunlight, corrosive vapour or oil, or
b) in a hazardous location,
shall be so selected or enclosed that it is protected against harmful effects
or it shall comply with the requirements of an applicable standard (or both).
c) for combined gas and electrical installation, cognisance shall be taken of
the requirement stipulated in SANS 10087-1.
Seems like they've now got us by the S & C's.That wasn't the case in 2018.
How many SANS regs other than 10142 - 1 must be taken into account when there's a gas stove in the kitchen.
In this thread alone 10187-1, 10108 and 10087-1 is mentioned.
While we busy with this topic, are there any more ?
I hope each one of the above doesn't cost the same as SANS 10142 -1.
Glad I'm slowly busy winding down. All these regs are getting a bit complicated for this toppie.
Thank goodness there is no public awareness ... so nobody really knows what is right and wrong.Seems like they've now got us by the S & C's.
How many SANS regs other than 10142 - 1 must be taken into account when there's a gas stove in the kitchen.
In this thread alone 10187-1, 10108 and 10087-1 is mentioned.
While we busy with this topic, are there any more ?
I hope each one of the above doesn't cost the same as SANS 10142 -1.
Glad I'm slowly busy winding down. All these regs are getting a bit complicated for this toppie.
There is no policing ... so unless you F%^& up ... chances are very slim that you would get caught ... so al these rules are pretty meaning less until the system actually functions.
The average age of a skilled tradesman is between 50 and 60 ... no long and they will be out the picture.
We cant even get a simple thing like fixing potholes right ... the electrical industry is complex with too many rules and regulations.
This forum doesnt even touch on the tip of the iceberg ... take note of how few responses there to issues or queries ... either this forum doenst get much traffic or people really just dont care ...especially if it mean having to pay more money to fix something that works and has been for 20 years. It seems the attitude.
As we have noticed with the ECA (the hand of safety) ... it seems they cant even get simple things like communication DOL registration right ... imagine technical information regarding regulations ... I suppose an article with wire through circuit breakers for safe isolation and the video on Carte Blanche sums it up
Comments are based on opinion...not always facts....that's why people use an alias.
You are not going to quote to move the dedicated socket outlet to a safe distance?
A thought on the 10142-1 Edition 3 update i.r.o. taking cognisance of the gas installation standard - is there a reciprocal clause added to the gas installation standard?
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