Stove Isolator position

**ians** · 14-Feb-22, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Derlyn

I think we can have a week long discussion about the positioning of isolators and socket outlets in kitchens and after that, at some stage, each one of us is still going to find ourselves in a position where we are not 100% sure if the position of a certain plug or isolator is legal or not.

Reading through the regs again, I cannot find anything regarding cooking appliances rated at less than 16A. Please correct me if I have overlooked something.

How legal is it to have an undercounter plug supplying an appliance with the appliance( washing machine) pushed under the counter conceiling the plug? Same with a fridge in a cupboard with the plug directly behind it. Same with an extractor above the stove being plugged into a plug in the attic with it's lead running through the chimney into the attic.

So many questions.

Derlyn

When we do new installations or kitchen revamps ... we fit isolators above the counter ... the problem with doing this ... the appliance warranty becomes an issue as soon as you cut the plug top off ... so you have a no win situation

**GCE** · 14-Feb-22, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by GCE

Had a question posed on a stove isolator position
Contractor went in to carry out an inspection and issued a coc for a sale to go through.

Kitchen is upmarket and fully tiled and as happens there is a gas hob with an isolator above it.
The unit was built , as an estimate , around 2005.

The seller tells the contractor that the stove is not part of the sale and is removing the stove, so no need to relocate the isolator.

The seller removes the stove - The new owner takes possession and buys a gas stove and the gas installer will now not issue a gas certificate as the isolator is above the hob, as per pic.
The stove is a freestanding stove.

The new owner now wants the Electrical contractor to rectify the isolator position at the contractors cost as he reckons the COC is invalid.
Part of the reason is because he saw the gas hob in the position when he view and signed the purchase agreement.

Looking through the regulations , I keep switching between whether the contractor is correct or incorrect.

What and why would you do differently

Been reading the replies -
My thoughts are that the Contractor is signing off as reasonable safe and would be referring to the code at the time of installation - The installation was around 2005 and no reference was made to Gas regs , this only came about in Ed 3 July 2020
The reference to gas regulations is also hidden away ( in ED3) under fundamentals 5.2.4 and unfortunately is not under fixed appliances and particularly stoves which I think should be rectified .
The gas regulations state the isolator shall be above the level of the oven and 200mm clearance from the hob.( Pasted relevant section below)

What is wrong with pulling the freestanding hob 200mm away from the wall , the isolator is above the hob and now 200mm away - Surely it is then legal ?

In terms of the OHS Act, the provisions of this part of SANS 10142 apply
only from the point of control to the point of consumption.
Because this part of SANS 10142 is continually updated, problems can arise
on which version of the standard will be applicable when a contract is
signed. The date of approval of the latest revision or amendment of this part
of SANS 10142 will be the implementation date of the revision or the
amendment. The applicable version of this part of SANS 10142 is the one
with the latest implementation date before the contract date. So contracts
signed before the approval of an amendment shall be carried out in
accordance with the provisions of the unamended standard. If an existing
installation is extended or altered, such extension or alteration shall comply
with the provisions of this part of SANS 10142 that were applicable at the
time of the erection of the extension or alteration.
The edition of the standard that was applicable at the date of erection of an
electrical installation is to be considered the edition defining the
requirements applicable to that particular electrical installation.

SANS 10087-1:2013 Ed6
9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

**GCE** · 14-Feb-22, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Derlyn

Usually a gas stove is supplied with a normal 3 pin plug in which case the socket outlet into which it is plugged into serves as the isolator.

If the above is true then I would remove the isolator and fit a blank plate in order to satisfy the gas contractor.

Derlyn

The gas regualtions call for an isolator and do not allow a socket

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

**GCE** · 14-Feb-22, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dave A

For the electrician the best CYA in the situation you presented is a photo of the situation as at the time of the issue of the (I assume a 9.2.b) CoC.
If that photo had the gas stove in place and the electrician was relying on the statement by the seller - we don't rely on verbal statements from the seller; get it in writing.
And add a note in the CoC.

Just to add to the mix, what if there is fixed gas supply piping in place and no cooking appliance..?

There was a photo without an stove in position and what looks like a gas pipe.
There was a reasonable space to have a 4 plate hob and oven which may have made the distances ? debatable maybe but if it is not there you don't know.

**Derlyn** · 14-Feb-22, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by GCE

The gas regualtions call for an isolator and do not allow a socket

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

This is interesting.

I have communicated with 3 gas installers regarding the above regulation and they are all of the opinion that a gas stove incorporating an electric oven in one unit, supplied with a 3 pin plug, does not need an isolator and can be plugged into a socket outlet.

The above regulation (9) only comes into play when the gas hob and electric oven are 2 seperate units. The oven must then conform to the regulations for electric ovens which requires that it has to have an isolator. The gas hob can however still be plugged into a socket outlet by means of the 3 pin plug provided.

Something else mentioned was that should the gas stove be of the type with a glass protector over the burners that is flipped up backwards when a burner is used, then the isolator may be on the wall above the stove.

Derlyn

**ians** · 15-Feb-22, 07:51 AM

Let me get some popcorn and beer ... this is getting interesting.

You live and learn ... my understanding has always been that a hob is unit dropped into a fixed counter top and under counter or eye level oven is fitted into a fixed cupboard ... in the past instead of installing 6 mm wire with a 40 amp breaker ... for a hob/eye level oven ... we would use a 4 mm wire and install a 30 amp breaker for each unit.

If the gas hob/electric oven has a standard 16 amp plug top ... firstly the warranty would fall away if you cut the plug off. If the manufacturer designs the appliance to be plugged into the wall why would you change the manufactures specs

Why are the units not being fitted with the new 164-2 type plug top?

**ians** · 15-Feb-22, 07:57 AM

If you fit the isolator above the hob ... what happens if there is a fire on the hob? maybe the reg should change to 200 mm and not above the hob ... same with a DB ... why would you allow a DB above a stove even if it is IP 44 rated.

the last time I forgot the popcorn on the stove during one of these long threads ... by the time I got back to the kitchen the flame was already touching the ceiling ... lucky I had a fire bucket full of sand next to the stove .. .from the last time I forgot about the popcorn.

**GCE** · 15-Feb-22, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Derlyn

This is interesting.

The above regulation (9) only comes into play when the gas hob and electric oven are 2 seperate units. The oven must then conform to the regulations for electric ovens which requires that it has to have an isolator. The gas hob can however still be plugged into a socket outlet by means of the 3 pin plug provided.

Derlyn

A stove does not have to have an isolator if it is under 16Amps according to Electrical Regulations

6.16.3.2 Cooking appliance circuits
6.16.3.2.1 A dedicated circuit(s) shall be provided for cooking appliance(s)
that are rated at more than 16 A.

**Derlyn** · 15-Feb-22, 08:58 AM

This has been educational for me as I also was not 100% sure of all the regs regarding gas free standing stoves and gas hobs.

Thanks to GCE's original question which started this thread, I can now say with confidence that I now know what's cutting.

So, to answer GCE's original question.

I note from the photo that the gas stove is a free standing unit incorporating an electric oven. It would have been supplied with a plugtop so the solution would be to blank off that isolator with a metal blanking plate and plug the unit into a socket outlet. Problem solved.

I also agree that only cooking appliances rated at more than 16A need dedicated cooking circuits with isolators. That takes care of all the 2 plate hotplates, countertop mini ovens, microwave ovens etc.

Learn't a lot from this thread.

Have a good day

Derlyn

**ACEsterhuizen** · 15-Feb-22, 09:07 AM

SANS 10087-1:2013 Ed6

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.

Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release.

Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.

No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connections.

No logic in this (in bold.) when, right there AT the burner, A PIECE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT IS ALREADY INSTALLED RIGHT BY THE BURNER, AND USED TO IGNITE THE GAS RIGHT THERE AT THE BURNER. (IGNITER)

An electrical connection IS ALREADY MADE RIGHT UNDER THE HOB, WHERE THE CABTYRE ENTERS THE OVEN FROM THE PLUG TO BE CONNECTYED ON THE TERMINALS OF THE OVEN.

(my gas installer agrees, its a joke.)