Minimum force being used.....the more things change the more they stay the same...

[ians]

Police are human just like you and i, trained or not.

Human and human, or am i missing something?


7 pm news tonight, 2 policemen shot dead before they could even draw their firearms.

[adrianh]

Yes you are missing something. An airline pilot is trained to fly a plane and cope with emergency situations. They spend countless hours practicing to handle such situations. They should not panic and lose their cool when the engine falls off the wing, they are expected to respond without fear and to land the plane safely....yes?

A paramedic s trained not to vomit or faint when he is at the scene of a horrific accident, a plumber is trained to deal with the nasty stuff that they have to deal with.

You cannot compare trained and untrained people to one another where both those people are expected to react procedurally to a situation that is within the scope of the training of one of those people. It would be like asking: what you would do (Adrian the layman - if your 737's engine falls off on take-off aka Nationwide Cape Town). The point is that I am not trained to deal with the situation, the pilot is and should deal with it in accordance with his training without putting the lives of the crew or passengers at risk.

The same goes for the police. They cannot claim that they were panicked or that it was in the heat of the moment or that they were scared or that they didn't hear the ceasefire command. They are paid professionals who should not fold under pressure. Imagine if the brain surgeon says three quaters of the way through an operation that he got so stressed that he slipped and cut the patients brain to pieces.

See what I am saying....

[ians]

Maybe you can explain why the strikers where armed and used a "muti" if their intentions were peaceful.

I noted that none of your comparisons included a police officer being shot at.

Maybe you could give us a comparison, of what a police officer should do if they are shot at, or attacked by a group with guns, spears and pangas.

Dont forget to mention in your comaprison, the part where 2 police officers had already been killed before they attacked.

At what point they should have stopped, i could agree it looks like they were shooting just to empty mags.

[adrianh]

Judge Greenland already covered that.

Guys --- when you watch the video clip this is what is also striking ----
1. a tear gas canister is thrown at the group;
2. this was obviously done to get them to move;
3. they did move -- and this should have been anticipated;
4. they move/charge in the direction of a group of police;
5. however it is a group of police to the right of the police being charged that start shooting;
6. the rioters are immediately mowed down by automatic gun fire and they fall like skittles;
7. some police officers start shouting "cease fire, cease fire";
8. the call goes unheeded, as some police officers next to a vehicle NOT UNDER ANY THREAT WHATSOEVER continue to fire at the rioters now on the ground!!!????

A. On these facts it is clear that there was no predetermined plan, other than that if the rioters moved in the direction of the police, in reaction to the teargas, IMMEDIATE DEADLY FORCE WOULD BE USED TO KILL THEM.

B. No rubber bullets were used - -which should have been the first option .. NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER. The fact that this was not the option speaks volumes.

C. Of extreme significance is the fact that there was no IMMEDIATE response to the "Cease FIRE" call. This IS A VERY BAD indicator. It is indicative of a badly trained, very jumpy force ... AND proves that there was no plan in place as to the "command regime in combat".

D. It was also notable that some police officers nearer to the charge did not fire at all, while others further away did. This makes nonsense of any police officer being in a situation of "HAVING TO KILL", because if this was so, the ones in the front would also fire.

[ians]

Something i did note while watching the yotube clip, some of the police officers where wearing a beret, like they were from a special unit of sorts.

[Nickolai Naydenov]

Did any of you watch interface tonight? If you did then you would have understood that the whole situation was created by the two rival mine unions in fight for control and money, don't you guys think that that's where you should start from?

From what I gather specifically from Adrian and Chris if 40 policeman died it would have been better than 40 miners because the logic is that's what jobs they chose? You need to stop being so selfish and put yourself in their shoes, what do you do when they shoot at you? Duck and hope you don't get shot or do you retaliate? There was also commnts on why they didn't use rubber bullets, simple answer to that, when they are shooting at you with live rounds do you think rubber is the correct rounds to use so that they can get up an attempt to shoot you again? It's very easy to talk, judge, complain and moan with light hand when it's not a about you! All your examples about the pilots, sergeons and what not are very shallow Adrian. Why didn't you use a real life example like the one of when a captain shouted at a robber "drop the gun" a few times and eventually he got killed because he didn't shoot the suspect, he did what you suggesting and he died even thou he would have been justified for using lethal force and this is the reality. With regards to the inconsiderate comments of they chose ther jobs I will tell you that not everyone is as fortunate as some of you to have a choice of a job, many people in this country will apply for any job as long as they can feed themselves and their families! So if you care so much open your eyes, open your mind, stop with the stupid comments, we've all got brains so use it!

The guys with the berets are special forces, the military was also called to the scene, all of that shows that crowd control unit was obviously not efficient and therefore they escalated it with brining in the army and special forces, bit no let's listen to some of the specialists here that think they know everything and they have it all figured out

[adrianh]

I am unfortunately unable to agree with your point of view regarding this matter eventhough you make an emotive case for us to accept a mediocre police force.

[ians]

This is just my thought on the little info i have on the whole situation, it is a sad day for South Africa any way you look at this incident. We can all point fingers and blame the police, the strikers or the unions. The bottom line is we have a situation, what is the goverment going to do about it.

If i understand what adrianh is saying, "the police are not well equipped or adequately trained" i would tend to agree. Maybe they just dont have enough resources (i am sure Nickolai Naydenov would agree)

One of the question we should be asking is why were the strikers armed, to defend themselves from the police or take the law into their own hands?

I cannot comment on why the police kept shooting, only the police on the ground will be able to answer that question, i am sure it is going to be the first question in the enquiry.

Something else to consider, if the strikers shot the first shot, nobody would have been able to hear if the strikers had stop shooting, because of the noise from all the firearms. I am sure if you have ever shot a firearm without ear protection you can imagine how loud this whole ordeal must have been.

The other point i noticed people are commenting about, how far the police were away from the strikers and still shooting. You can kill a person from a 100 m + with a firearm, this wasnt a "stick fight". I did notice in the yotube clip that there was a firearm recovered during this "gun battle".

[adrianh]

If i understand what adrianh is saying, "the police are not well equipped or adequately trained" i would tend to agree. Maybe they just dont have enough resources (i am sure Nickolai Naydenov would agree)

Well put...

[vieome]

The mob was not charging at the police, they were simply trying to get away from the tear gas. The police simply smoked them out, like smoking up a bee hive, and then calling the dizzy bees a threat. In the video you can clearly see a police man standing 6 feet away and firing at will, in no way was this policeman feeling threatend, this was a well planned masacre, they simply tear-gased them and forced them into a bottle neck between the two cars. Image belongs to reuters