The bitch is back!

[mother]

This last year or so I have learnt some painful lessons. I thought I could turn my life around and be a nice warm-hearted friendly "mommy"-type person. Well that's not working for me!!!

Lesson 1: There's a GOOD reason why people don't buy property in what I think they call a "cold-sell"... Friends of mine battled to sell their property, and I was looking to move to a bigger house. I thought their's was a good buy, so I offered to move in with an option to purchase over 9 months. They were in serious trouble (also going through a nasty divorce) and asked if I couldn't pay the deposit now, then I have 9 months to secure the bond. I know, I know, everyone warned me, but I believed nothing would go wrong. So I paid them the R200,000 cash, moved in, and... the first sh1t hit the fan when a geyser blew, and they (obviously still the owners of the house and the home owners insurance, which I was paying monthly) refused to repair it. Unfortunately (actually it was a blessing in disguise) I couldn't secure a bond in the 9 months. I moved out and demanded my money back. Well, they claim that I agreed (verbally) that, if the sale didn't go through, they would only pay me back once the house is actually sold. Not true, we agreed it would be within a reasonable period, that's all. Realistically, I know they used the money to clear their debts, and that they don't have the cash, but there are alternatives! I know the outstanding amount on their bond and the value of their house, and they could easily up their bond and still have it covered by the rental income of the property. Oh, and there is NO indication whatsoever that they are actually attempting to sell that house, nevermind maintain it! It's been 6 months since I moved out, which I reckon is a reasonable time, and I tried to call in a favour from a local attorney, to add muscle to my demand. damn, but since the amount is over R100,000, I need an attorney in Pretoria. Anyone know an attorney who would do this on a no win no fee basis? And come to think of it, shouldn't the debtor pay the attorney's fees anyway?

Lesson 2: Read the fine print! I entered into a contract with ADT security when I moved into that house. The salesman told me it was a 12 month contract, and I didn't bother to read the fine print during our 15 minute meeting. When I moved out, I gave ADT notice to terminate, thinking we were close to the end of the period anyway. Wake-up call! It was a 36 month contract! Now if I had moved somewhere where ADT could actually still provide me with a service, that wouldn't have been an issue. Except, the complex where I live does not allow anyone (not even armed response) easy access to any of the units, and my landlord refuses to let me install anything, not even a monitoring system. So basically, it is impossible for ADT to provide me with any service whatsoever. I tried explaining this to them, but they insist that my only options are the "mover's options", i.e. someone must take over my contract. Who? All my friends and family are already signed up with armed response, and I don't even know IF there are long term tenants in the previous house (for obvious reasons that communication channel is non-existent now). So I went through my contract with a fine tooth comb, only to discover: only ADT has the right to terminate the contract, and the customer can NEVER terminate it, not under any circumstances! So, while they cannot and have not been providing ANY service whatsoever, they are still entitled to my money. And they keep taking it every month. I have been to ABSA to stop the debit order (I have all the paperwork to show it was stopped), but lo and behold, last week ADT took not only the monthly contract fee, but also a licensing fee of R195! WTF for????? It's not my system, it belongs to the owners of that house! Anyway, so I've now put my complaint on hellopeter.com, and this morning I got a "standard" reply to say that someone will phone me before 11h00. If they give me the "mover's options" again, I am going to scream! An option implies that I have a choice, but I actually cannot choose any of those options, which means they are NOT options! I don't understand why they keep telling me it's impossible to terminate this contract... why? There is zero performance from their side, so why should I be held to this?

Lesson 3: ABSA is my next target, for letting that debit order go through! Apparently what I do with my account and my money, is no longer my choice??? Who are they to decide to honour a debit order after I had given them instruction NOT to?

I am so pissed off today! And I have decided that "warm and fuzzy" just doesn't work for me anymore. Apparently no one else out there believes in fairness and no one lives or operates according to any moral standard. So, the bitch is back!

[Dave A]

If the bitch is back to fight for justice, all power to you.

Just please don't be bitchy to everyone

[Just Gone]

Seems like you having quite a day mother. Sorry to hear about your woes. I was also caught in the debit order trap a while ago and now make sure that I put a stop order on my account that I can control and do not sign contracts where they can take whatever money they want to including licence fees etc etc. I will never again allow someone to take money from my account - you leave yourself open to all kinds of fine print that costs you money at the end of the day.

[gordo]

im sorry to hear mother. I wish u all the best. wish there was some way that i could help, but i dont work for stupid adt. else id sneak in like batman and tear up that contract

[mother]

Don't worry Dave, I'll still be fair, despite my wrath!

Kevin, you're so right about debit orders... I think I have no also become allergic to them. My mom just told me I'm not "kommin" enough to throw a decent tantrum in ABSA, but hey, I'm gonna try. I usually try to avoid losing my cool in public, since I have a tendency to swear when I redline.

And gordo, how about we both dress up in superhero suits, and just burn down the entire building? Much easier than tearing up one contract! And I'm pretty sure there will be other very thankful customers out there! (Perhaps I should put a disclaimer here: I'm just kidding!)

[IanF]

Mother
Why don't you insist that ADT install the alarm system at the new place. If they can't perform due to the difficult landlord that is their problem because they tricked you into signing a 36 month contract, just say you are willing to pay if they provide the service.
Then for getting your R200k back I would consider putting them into insolvency if they can't pay. Do you need friends like this. Sometimes a lawyers letter with a final demand and the threat to apply for insolvency works.
Since you are a bitch now the consequences don't matter.

[Venturepreneur]

Cash is King......I have zero debit orders

[Sparks]

Dear Mother, I just might be able to be of assistance. If you want you can delete your personal details & send me the contract. I just got a quote from a few companies and still have to choose which one to use. ADT have a nice shady tree about 1.5 km from where I stay so their response should be reasonable.

[mother]

Sparks, are you serious?!

[tec0]

I am a pain in the ass, ask anyone that do business with me, my side is clean I expect nothing less than the same, especially when it comes to large transactions and contracts. I am angry to say that my Vodacom contract was changed without my say so and or approval 24 hours after I signed up.

I ask them what this was about they simply state it is "normal" and that I am a responsible person and must not worry about the contract changes anyway. Reason why I am angry about it is if I step over the line it is an immediate R1500 loss on my behalf and that from a R149 contract.

So I do my best to micromanage my 12 month Vodacom contract and hope that I will not need to do business with them ever again. If they change your contract "written agreement!!!!!" what else are they willing to do?
As for the 12 month contract that you signed and only afterwards saw it was a 35 month contract that was BS. But sadly BS grew legs in South Africa so people just have to run with it. When I moved my insurance "car & house" I gave the order that "everything must be stopped from a set date and within the termination requirement as set by them"

Behold they took money of me "R50" that is under my SMS alert and I never knew about it. They never did cancel everything and never bother to send me a statement. Sadly for them I was in the process of changing my main bank account and when it was empty they couldn't take the R50

I got an email demanding money!!! Stating that I am violating the agreement!!! I phone them and kindly ask why this was not cancelled and why I didn't receive a statement? After all the little voice in the begging of the tape states that everything said will become part of a contractual agreement!!!

So contractually I said cancel "everything" now what about the money they stole from me? Well I will give them a week or two...

But the crown BS of the year award goes to my doctor! This a$$h0le never completed the proper paperwork required by my medical aid and just took the money the easiest way he could get! Guess what I never before this year ever ran out of medical funds! But this time around because of his mismanagement it did.

So when I injured myself I had to go to the doctor but I couldn't because there are no more funds available! So now I was in pain for more than a month "still is in pain" and my medical aid just said sorry there is nothing they can do...

So check with your doctor that the right "allocation" is used for the right treatment and so on.

[Mark Atkinson]

I'm sorry to hear about all your troubles, Mother. I do have my doubts about your bitchy side though.

I can definitely relate to your mindset, though. I will always be at the forefront of the struggle against corporates misusing their power to undermine and cheat their customers. (See my Varsity College debacle)

I find that extreme negative publicity is the most effective form of seeing results from such companies. I have seen results from MTN and Varsity College after expressing my contempt in various places on the Internet. You do, however, get companies who seemingly couldn't care less. Autopage is an example. With those companies - just stay away.

I believe strongly that a customer should not be charged for a service that he/she will not or cannot use, particularly for reasons out of his/her control. In our business we don't charge a cent until the customer is satisfied with the design of the website/logo. Our clients can walk away after having seen the mock-up, no questions asked.

I just feel like customer service and the customer experience is an extremely neglected facet of business in South Africa. There are very few who do it well.

Good luck with your struggle, Mother. I don't believe you will be bitchy for very long, though.

[Blurock]

Mother, you have my full support! Most of Corporate SA think they can con consumers and get away with it. I am sure that the new consumer act may provide you with some protection. With regards to you friends....

Just one thing about the difference between stop orders and debit orders. A stop order is an instruction to the bank, instructing them to pay a certain amount to a beneficiary on a set date. A debit order is an authorisation to a beneficiary to deduct money from your account on a set date. The amount on the stop order is fixed, while the amount on the debit order may be adjusted by the authorized beneficiary.

A stop order can be stopped by the bank at any time, but a debit order can only be stopped by the authorised beneficiary or service provider. A stop payment instruction will only stop the current month's debit order and not the whole series of payments due. The reason for this is that a magtape is prepared about a month in advance. The tape contains all the payment instructions to be processed by the bank and may differ from month to month. If you give your stop payment instruction too late, the current month's payment may still go through as it may have been processed already.

This is not the bank's problem. That is why we must be very careful when we sign debit orders. A debit order should also have an upper limit so that it prevents the beneficiary from deducting unauthorized amounts. Only authorize debit orders to trusted suppliers and suppliers who will not give you hassles when you cancel.

I sincerely hope that you can recover your money. An option maybe to attach the house?

[Just Gone]

Yep @ Blurock .............. as I said Stop orders .............. not debit orders !!

[Dave A]

That "lesson 1" has been bothering me - hard to see a good end to that one. Even if you get the money it's likely to ruin the friendship.
And the danger in applying for liquidation is the assets might not realise all their debts, and the bank will get first bite as a secured creditor. You might not get all your money

One thought that did occur is instead of going the "bitchy" legal route, ask them to convert the debt to a notarial bond on the property. At least that way your money is secured if/when they do sell and you could charge interest. Costs of registering the bond for their account, of course. (If they don't like it, they can always just pay up ).
The possible snag is the National Credit Act - not sure if you'd need to register as a credit provider.

[mother]

Thanks for the support, guys! I guess first of all I just needed to get it all off my chest, which helped. And thanks for that informative explaination on debit orders vs stop orders, Blurock! Very helpful!

Just a little feedback: I have found a lawyer. And an option B in the wings, just in case. I personally sent a letter to them as "final demand for payment", nothing happened, just excuses. So now it's in the pitbull's hands (jaws)! I asked him to do WHATEVER needs to be done, I'm finished with being nice. You know, Dave, it's not that the friendship is going to be ruined, it's already ruined. I was just too civilized about it for too long now, trying to be understanding and compassionate, but in the end it is at my expense.

Oh, and the ADT story just gets better! I posted my grievance on hellopeter.com. Got a reply early the very next day, thanking me for bringing this to their attention, and saying that someone will phone me before 11h00 to sort this out. Well, that night I wanted to "reply" to their comment on hellopeter, to say that no-one called. I couldn't believe that, according to the website's T&C's, I'm not allowed to reply within 5 days! Only on day 6 was I allowed the option to reply. So I did! (By the way, if you want to use the words "stealing" or "lie" on hellopeter, you should misspell it, otherwise it gets moderated out and becomes ******). ADT replied to my second (far more pissed off) comment almost immediately to say that "This matter has been escalated to the relevant manager and somebody will be in contact with you." Oh how sweet! Please note that "somebody" will phone me ... I guess, whenever? That was 4 days ago! I know they're not gonna call.

But I think I'm equally disappointed in hellopeter. I thought it was a platform that gave a voice to abused consumers. But your voice isn't actually heard there, because the site is being flooded by complaints at a rate of nearly 1 every minute. And you know, if things are so bad that so many people have so many complaints, then the badness has become the norm and complaints are no longer valid! Also, the site doesn't allow enough freedom to really express your feelings (i.e. words moderated out), it limits your complaint to 1200 characters (well, I can't stick to that and tell the whole story, especially not if I'm using appropriate adjectives), it limits your replies to 1 every 5 days and a maximum of 500 characters. Oh crap man!!!

Now I'm angry again!