SHOOT TO KILL OR BE KILLED?

[JanChris]

I was earlier this month a victim of having a car (That I inherited from my father) stolen from my premises. There were 7 bastards, they placed a chemical near my bedroom room window so that we could not wake up. I have two Jack Russel dogs that sleep with us in the room. I am now trying to hunt the bastards down, and I will get them. The car is most likely changed by now but we all have little unique marks or changes that you can identify the cars with.

If I was awake, there would have been shots fired as the bastards would have been armed.

There are so many versions of when you can shoot to kill, that I would like to here from the forum there opinion of any incidents where a thief was shot and killed. I WILL shoot to kill if anyone enters my property uninvited as the SAPS has no more teeth to protect the citizens.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

It is reasonable force.
Self defence requires that there is an imminent threat to a person.

[HR Solutions]

It is reasonable force.
Self defence requires that there is an imminent threat to a person.

Yep......just like Oscar .....

[JanChris]

It is reasonable force.
Self defence requires that there is an imminent threat to a person.

So if I shout and say "Leave the car" and a bastard turns around and I am not sure if he is armed, but with all the violent crimes happening now, I end up shooting and killing the bastard. What will that be?

[BusFact]

Its straight forward ... but not easy. Your life or someone else's has to be in imminent danger. If you shoot someone trying to protect your property, you'll run in to trouble with the law. If you are not sure if he is armed then you are not in imminent danger and so cannot shoot. So in the above example you just mentioned you'll be charged with culpable homicide or maybe even murder if he is not armed and about to attack you.

In real life though, there is quite a grey area. You will have to convince a court that you thought your life was in imminent danger (that means you were about to be hurt or killed).

[flaker]

Just to go further from JanChris's post, what if he shot not to kill but to somewhat to wound/stop the intruders so they can be arrested? what would be the position then?

[BusFact]

A warning shot into nearby soft ground would be acceptable. Shoot to wound is incredibly difficult and prone to error. A leg wound to an artery can cause death for example. A gun is a lethal weapon. A taser would be better at disabling and apprehending a criminal.

I would suggest that you ever only fire a gun in a real situation if you intend to kill, with the exception being a safe warning shot.

[ians]

After reading the incident were a man was tied up and his wife dragged around the house by her hair then stabbed multiple times in the head, put back with her husband to die, she suffered severe head injuries for almost an hour before she died. It is better i dont respond to this type of incident on social media for fear of getting myself into trouble.

However i will say, it is about time we started protecting our families. The only way to protect your family is to make sure that these friendly loving South Africans who choose to show their affection to other South Africans in the manner in which they do are prevented from showing their affection to other South Africans. Too often we leave it to other people to look after our families. We wait till something bad happens to us and only then do we join neighbourhood watch groups etc. That time of living in Coco land thinking that this place will become a rainbow nation where we all living in peace and harmony is is pipe dream, if you havent figued that out yet then shame i feel sorry for you and hope for your sake that you are one of the few who havent yet been involved in some form violent crime yet. Unfortunately I am not one of those fortunate people, my daughter has already experienced to incidents of violent crime where they have beaten her and dragged her around the house while at home alone.

Just when i thought our neighbourhood watch was working effectively we had 7 incidents in 1 day starting at 10 in the morning going on until 11 pm.

We need to stick together and pool our resources with a fund to make sure that when there is an incident to any of our families, a competent team of investigators who can look after themselves go looking for these people and make sure they a caught.

We are using prehistoric methods of protecting our families. Armed response companies which have 1 armed guard in a vehicle driving around is about as old fashion as using a 386 computer. We need to start directing the money to neighbourhood watch groups which have a combination of
armed response,
cctv positioned in key locations with cameras which can actually identify friendlies, with control rooms which have access to road side cameras
private investigators,
competent heavily armed task teams,
drones for fence jumpers,
K9 unit,
Thermal imagers.

Some people are going to say but where will all the money come from, think of it this way if 7 of them raid your house tie you up and gang rape your mother or wife and daughters while you hear them screaming for help how much would you be prepared to pay to bring justice to those friendlies? Just remember once it happened to you it is already tooo late, you could help prevent kind of loving attitude they have towards your family by getting involved before it happens to you rather than waiting to become a victim. Get involved before it is too late, the only colour in this rainbow nation at present is red.

[JanChris]

After reading the incident were a man was tied up and his wife dragged around the house by her hair then stabbed multiple times in the head, put back with her husband to die, she suffered severe head injuries for almost an hour before she died. It is better i dont respond to this type of incident on social media for fear of getting myself into trouble.

However i will say, it is about time we started protecting our families. The only way to protect your family is to make sure that these friendly loving South Africans who choose to show their affection to other South Africans in the manner in which they do are prevented from showing their affection to other South Africans. Too often we leave it to other people to look after our families. We wait till something bad happens to us and only then do we join neighbourhood watch groups etc. That time of living in Coco land thinking that this place will become a rainbow nation where we all living in peace and harmony is is pipe dream, if you havent figued that out yet then shame i feel sorry for you and hope for your sake that you are one of the few who havent yet been involved in some form violent crime yet. Unfortunately I am not one of those fortunate people, my daughter has already experienced to incidents of violent crime where they have beaten her and dragged her around the house while at home alone.

Just when i thought our neighbourhood watch was working effectively we had 7 incidents in 1 day starting at 10 in the morning going on until 11 pm.

We need to stick together and pool our resources with a fund to make sure that when there is an incident to any of our families, a competent team of investigators who can look after themselves go looking for these people and make sure they a caught.

We are using prehistoric methods of protecting our families. Armed response companies which have 1 armed guard in a vehicle driving around is about as old fashion as using a 386 computer. We need to start directing the money to neighbourhood watch groups which have a combination of
armed response,
cctv positioned in key locations with cameras which can actually identify friendlies, with control rooms which have access to road side cameras
private investigators,
competent heavily armed task teams,
drones for fence jumpers,
K9 unit,
Thermal imagers.

Some people are going to say but where will all the money come from, think of it this way if 7 of them raid your house tie you up and gang rape your mother or wife and daughters while you hear them screaming for help how much would you be prepared to pay to bring justice to those friendlies? Just remember once it happened to you it is already tooo late, you could help prevent kind of loving attitude they have towards your family by getting involved before it happens to you rather than waiting to become a victim. Get involved before it is too late, the only colour in this rainbow nation at present is red.

If any person has ever spoken sense about our "Rainbow Nation", you have spoken wisely. I have made a promise, that should ANYONE enter my premises uninvited, they will remove that person in a body bag. The police are not just helpless, they are useless. They can only intimidate law abiding citizens and those who commit minor crimes.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

Just to go further from JanChris's post, what if he shot not to kill but to somewhat to wound/stop the intruders so they can be arrested? what would be the position then?

Assault with intent to do GBH.
Shooting g only justified if threat of harm or reasonable suspicion of further harm, thereby necessitating that an arrest is essential.

[wynn]

I have always thought that if I was ever in the unlucky position of having to shoot an intruder I would not call the cops but firstly cut out and remove the bullet and then just take his body to a far away deserted area and dump it.

If the cops are so clever they will find me and besides murder/culpable homicide I will be charged with the extra offense of trying to defeat the ends of justice, that means I will be no deeper in the s#!t than if I had called them in the first place.

If they don't find me so what?

[JanChris]

I have always thought that if I was ever in the unlucky position of having to shoot an intruder I would not call the cops but firstly cut out and remove the bullet and then just take his body to a far away deserted area and dump it.

If the cops are so clever they will find me and besides murder/culpable homicide I will be charged with the extra offense of trying to defeat the ends of justice, that means I will be no deeper in the s#!t than if I had called them in the first place.

If they don't find me so what?

Hi, I see that you are from my home town. I am so livid at what is happening to the country and that nothing is done about it. Too many "citizens" have the "Ostrich Syndrome" they choose not to see it. We are going backwards, and anyone who sees it differently is living in a dream. However, I made a promise that if anyone enters my property uninvited, they will remove that in a body bag. If Oscar can murder Reeva and only get 5 years because of money, I will most likely get away with it. I am familiar with the law but it appears to be "applied" differently depending on your status or race.

[Mike C]

Serious question to stern.law and any other lawyers/magistrates/judges out there.

Does the court ever take the criminal's intention into account? i.e. What was he doing trespassing in the first place? What was his intention of breaking and entering? Surely that already puts the negative weight onto the "criminal's" side.

And we know that when criminals are confronted these days, their reaction is generally not to flee.

I know that we are all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but the victim is also innocent here ... minding their own business, on their own property, in their own house.

The actions of a "normal person" in that position is surely not to submit to the bully and just give them what they want! The mere unauthorised presence of the criminal in a person's home should be regarded as constituting some kind of threat, and there is no way in hell that you can predict whether the intruder is going to use "excessive force" in getting what he wants.

It seems to me as though the law is no longer interested in recognising the rights of a law-abiding citizen, but more interested in protecting the "rights" of the criminal

The whole scenario of right and wrong seems to be so "turned on it's head" at the moment.

[wynn]

I understand where the law is coming from on this, a few years ago, prior to the 'Rainbow Nation', there was a security guard in East London who lured passing pedestrians or even went looking for them in his bakkie, he would take them inside a premises that had been broken into an hour or so earlier, once he had lured them inside he just shot them.

I assume the law is there to prevent this sort of abuse.

The locals called him 'Jesus' besides having a beard it was said that he was the last thing you saw if he caught you.

Ironically he only got a few years behind bars when he was charged and tried in the new 'Rainbow Nation'.

[Blurock]

Serious question to stern.law and any other lawyers/magistrates/judges out there.

Does the court ever take the criminal's intention into account? i.e. What was he doing trespassing in the first place? What was his intention of breaking and entering? Surely that already puts the negative weight onto the "criminal's" side.

And we know that when criminals are confronted these days, their reaction is generally not to flee.

I know that we are all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but the victim is also innocent here ... minding their own business, on their own property, in their own house.

The actions of a "normal person" in that position is surely not to submit to the bully and just give them what they want! The mere unauthorised presence of the criminal in a person's home should be regarded as constituting some kind of threat, and there is no way in hell that you can predict whether the intruder is going to use "excessive force" in getting what he wants.

It seems to me as though the law is no longer interested in recognising the rights of a law-abiding citizen, but more interested in protecting the "rights" of the criminal

The whole scenario of right and wrong seems to be so "turned on it's head" at the moment.

The righteous have no rights. Human rights is only for criminals and terrorists.

I have often wondered why people decide to study law. Is it because of their sense of justice, wanting to serve the "good" or is it to defy justice and build a name for themselves?