Conspiracy of Silence -- Are you being robbed by your Bank?

[kcrampono]

please feel free to read actions taken against the by Ubuntu Party on www.ubuntuparty.org.za we not here to oppose political parties we here to see all South Africans be treated as Humans this is our land.....

[Dave A]

@Scotty
Vanash has made some interesting points in his posts. Do you have any comment other than look at the website.

I guess not.

please feel free to read actions taken against the by Ubuntu Party on www.ubuntuparty.org.za we not here to oppose political parties we here to see all South Africans be treated as Humans this is our land.....

You see, that's the problem. I look at your website and instead of getting answers I find I've got even more questions.

Here's an example taken from your UBUNTU position on mines and mining:

A Council Of Elders will be appointed by the people of South Africa, consisting of the most trusted and respected individuals, to look after the interests of the people in this regard – this council will have absolute control to implement the will of the people – not the will of the corrupt politicians who are controlled by powerful multinational corporations.

Who will appoint the Elders?
What will be the process?
How will they determine the will of the people as to what needs to be done?

[IanF]

Now I get lost here
You are asking for money which will go into the system you are fighting.

[Darkangelyaya]

Now I get lost here [ATTACH=CONFIG]3057[/ATTACH]
You are asking for money which will go into the system you are fighting.

How do you suggest funding it then?
Obviously there needs to be a transitional period, but we all still work, live and eat with money, right?

[IanF]

How do you suggest funding it then?
Obviously there needs to be a transitional period, but we all still work, live and eat with money, right?

That is my point once the banks are gone how do pay for anything? If the claims are successful what are the chances of the banks still being in existence? That is the irony that I see.

[Darkangelyaya]

@Scotty
Vanash has made some interesting points in his posts. Do you have any comment other than look at the website.

I have to come to ScottyC's defense here: Since Vanash has raised such valid points, it would require diligent legal research in my opinion. It is no coincidence that Vanash took time to compile his arguments before posting it here. Surely ScottyC has the right to take some time in answering it? (And then, of course, he isn't as active in this forum as I am. Should I take something for linguistic diarrhoea?)

[Darkangelyaya]

In Iceland the banks were obliterated, the people then formed their own national bank - with their own rules. Why can't that happen here? Why can't we go back even to cash first, and then tackle the rest?

[Darkangelyaya]

This was posted on Ubuntu's blog, and I have found it a very interesting perspective:

'I will start with the conclusion : The current monetary system can only work if there are inequalities and injustices.
Demonstration
Let us pretend that tonight all the leaders of the world appear on primetime TV hours to announce this :
« Tomorrow, at noon, each and every citizen in the country will be given a new bank account in which a sum of 10 million dollars will be deposited. It will be yours to do whatwver you wish. And when you have spent all of it, just call our government to receive another identical sum. In other words, from now on, everyone has all the money he can wish for, forever. »
Before raising the spectre of hyperinflation, just think about it for a while. Forget about the impact on the economy, on society or on politics or whatever. Just think about this : What would be my own personal reaction?
For me, I would think about doing only what I like and stop working for a living. But for now, I would invite my wife and friends for a luxury dinner at a fine restaurant. « Hey we are rich, lets celebrate! » Only to find that the restaurant’s door is closed. Because the employees are also rich. And even the owner of the restaurant does not wish to work anymore. Why work to earn money when I already have all the money I need? I cannot have more than all.
So lets go to the grocery store to buy some filet mignon and lobster. And we find the same closed door. Why would anybody do anything to earn money anymore?
So we will soon be all hungry and unable to eat. The same will be true for any need I can have. We then will have to find a way to meet our needs. My neighbours and I will have to meet together and make offers. I know how to make soap and you can produce tomatoes. And the other neighbour already raises hens for the eggs and meat. Lets just contribute what we can for the benefit of all. And why should I ask money for my soaps? There is no point asking any money, since I already have all I want. I will only let anyone have access to my soaps if I can have access to some eggs and tomatoes.
This is how we will quickly realize that we do not even need money anymore. Money is irrelevant when everyone has it.
Now if we pretend on the contrary that money does not exist for anyone, we will come to the same conclusion. We dont need money.
So my conclusion is that the monetary system that we currently have can only work if there are rich and poor, haves and havenots. So that there are those with the money and those who will do anything to get some of it. Injustices are necessary for the system of money to work. It is inherently impossible to be all financially happy. This makes me understand why money cannot be a sustainable way to live in society. M. Tellinger, your contributionism system must be the natural answer. Thank you for this contribution of yours. I wish you all the best.
Paul'

[IanF]

I haven't been following Iceland's banking crisis, so I googled it. They seem to be coming right but there were consequences.

Undoing the damage caused by the crisis is a work in progress; not every Icelandic innovation would be feasible in the U.S. or Europe. Iceland’s debt stands at almost 100 percent of GDP. Many of the country’s professionals have left for Norway and Denmark amid a dearth of jobs. Iceland still must figure out how to ease constraints that barred investors from withdrawing as much as $8 billion from the country and transferring it overseas. Inflation remains stubbornly high. To counter that, and to prevent capital flight, Iceland’s central bank has increased interest rates five times in the past year. But raising interest rates makes credit more expensive, checking growth.

Link to Bloomberg
It sounds like one hell of a ride they had.

[Justloadit]

Hi Darkangelayaya,

The world originally started with bartering as the Ubunto blog states, but it evolved to another form of bartering.
I wwill use an simple example to illustrate. Lets say that you make soap, and your clients only have chickens, to barter, sounds great, but eventually you going to have chickens for breakfast lunch and supper, after a while you do not want chickens, and the pig farmer does not want your chickens for his pig, so what now?

Money was a form of bartering in which all could easily participate.

Now lets not forget, who is going to build this road that you need to go to market with?
and who is going to protect you while you are traveling on this road?
Now that's where the infrastructure came in, and that's how government started. They created and maintained an infrastructure for their citizens to mature in.

Before you know it we will be back into the system that is currently in use, as this is a manner in which you can trade with a commodity that every one will accept.

[wynn]

In the latest 'Noseweek' there is an article about toll roads and the Mpondo of Pondoland there is a quote from the article that is relevant to the discussion here

"In 1886, when gold was discovered on the Witwatersrand, it was clear that a source of cheap labour had to be found. The only way the Cape Prime Minister Cecil Rhodes could get the amaMpondo to make themselves available, was to compel them to enter the cash economy by imposing taxation that had to paid in British currency rather than in cattle. This necessitated a surrender of their sovereignty, thus in 1894 Pondoland was the last African territory of South Africa to be annexed by the British Colonial Government."

[ScottyC]

Sorry for the delayed response. Vanash has made some interesting points. These our out of my league to answer. Our legal advisor continually bang his head against the table. He did give a reply and if I can find it I'll reproduce it, but suffice to say, he doesn't agree at all.

It is so bloody obvious what the banks and the system are doing to us that if you choose to defend them, then you can only have your neck stuck very, very deep in the sand. The legal system is against us - totally. They will not allow us to win. This is about waking people up/

Seriously guys, come on now - how much more evidence and proof do you need before you realise that our children will not survive the coming enslaught unless we actually take pro-active steps to do something. STOP TRUSTING AND GIVING POWER TO THE SYSTEM!!!

Dave hit the nail on the head earlier with his fantastic response about us needing to THINK FOR OURSELVES. If you want to find a way to defend the system then I assure you that you will find one.

[Justloadit]

It's not that we are defending the banks, or the system.
There is no other form to substitute, no matter how hard you can think.

When there are a hand full of people bartering, the system seems that it will work, however, when you bring everyone into the mix, the bartering system falls apart.
I just picturing the garage owner having a coral at the back of the forecourt, with cats, dogs, sheep cattle and other livestock. Now the petrol company comes to drop of petrol in a tanker, he has to now deal with 3 cattle, 4 dogs , 9 sheep. 7 goats, an ex wife..... as you can see the bartering system can not work on a grand scale.

Until a new replacement system can be advocated, trying to stop the current system is going to be fruitless.

[ericlowry]

Banks involved in shady deals, really. In cahoots with each other to raise charges, really. Sa banks have about the highest profit in the world and still charge you to deposit your own cash in your own account. Talk about a rip off.
E

[Dave A]

It is so bloody obvious what the banks and the system are doing to us that if you choose to defend them, then you can only have your neck stuck very, very deep in the sand. The legal system is against us - totally. They will not allow us to win. This is about waking people up/

Seriously guys, come on now - how much more evidence and proof do you need before you realise that our children will not survive the coming enslaught unless we actually take pro-active steps to do something. STOP TRUSTING AND GIVING POWER TO THE SYSTEM!!!

This I (and we?) don't argue with. The problem is the NewEra / Ubuntu Party solutions are not viable (and that's putting it as gently as I can think of right now).

What I haven't nailed down yet is whether the whole program is born from spectacular naiveté or from minds far more cynical than my own.