Are you a sheep?

[Mike C]

How can you say that humans have an innate sense of right and wrong? Unless this can be shown by scientific study it is merely an opinion.

I would think that all people have some sense of spirituality because we all wonder where we come from and why we are here.

That was quite a long post there Adrian - and you make some very good points. I found the comments above a little contradictory, however. Can one not link the two together? If you agree that all people have some sense of spirituality, then why can't the same be said of the sense of right and wrong? They might come from the same source - whatever you understand that source to be.

It may be that I have misunderstood your definition of "spirituality". Often misunderstanding happens because we use the same words but have different meanings to them.

[adrianh]

I don't think that the two are related. Wondering where you come from doesn't mean that you have an understanding of the notion of right and wrong. I've watched a number of documentaries on animal behaviour. Animals only seem to cooperate if there is something in it for all the members that cooperate. An animal doesn't seem to be able to assist another just because the other needs it. Of course there is anectotal evidence of it happening but it doesn't seem to be the norm. There is a lot of footage of animals expressing fairness. In each case it gets expressed when the individual feels that he is treated unfairly. I've seen footage of elephants cheating - they are clever enough to figure out how to get something for nothing. The problem with the notion of right and wrong is simply that it is a social norm. We have to seperate the notion of right and wrong from instinctual species based values. It is not in the interest of a lioness to kill another in the pack if the other adds value to the group. This is not right vs wrong. The lioness doesn't think I shouldn't kill the other lioness because its wrong, she simply acts on instinct. Now one could argue that we gave the instincts the words right and wrong, but it is just too simple to say that because we have created all sorts of right and wrong values that are social and religious. Look, I don't know what the answers are, I am simply rolling ideas around in my head. The only thing I can do is to speculate based on my understanding of the topics at hand. I think that people are free to believe whatever they want provided that they don't impose those beliefs on others (but the reality is that they do and we accept it as a part of fitting into society...Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a bad thing, people need something to bind them together and being bound together by a system that has "good" values can only benefit society as a whole) But I do think that we should be open minded to the beliefs that others hold.

[ChrisNG53]

Are you a sheep?

Thanks guys.

Phew! Could never have imagined that the thread would be so stimulating and provoke so much wisdom on a plethora of philosophical, moral and intellectual aspects. I have copied and pasted so many "pearls of wisdom", as I am a serial plagiarizer.

However, I have to respectfully insist, as is my nature, that the central point of the thread was that you are a sheep when you go with the herd either unthinkingly or despite, in terms of your own understanding of the issues, to do is wrong.

The thread seeks to attack political cowardice and political naivete, that is now rampant.

A most credible riposte, with respect, is that sometimes it is not cowardice that makes us do this but a conscious assessment that the indicated "wrong" presents as a necessary evil. I suspect that this explains why, even some judges in South Africa accept that the current immoral, racist and absurd transformational model (AA and BEE) should be acquiesced in. That does not make them sheep ... because they are going with the herd after consciously deciding that the "wrong" is "right" for the greater good or whatever reason.

I think the other credible riposte that emerged is that you cannot be a sheep if you support the herd in your own interests, because that is not "sheepish" unthinking behavior, but an intelligent choice, albeit self serving and and wrong.

I accept that the thread should have been qualified to include these bastards as part of the herd.

So I now do that. The herd always has, in the lead pack, those who are seeking to lead the rest to serve their own mostly, but not always, nefarious, stinky, unwholesome objectives.

[wynn]

There should also be a caveat for the sheeple to beware of the 'Judas Goat'
He is the politician who will lead us into the 'cr@p'

[wynn]

In a discussion on Atheism etc. Jacques Rousseau touches on exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post, talk about synchronicity?
see the whole article at http://www1.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...till-gathering

Part of the problem might be that we forget how young we are and, therefore, how little experience we have of making sense of each other. While modern humans originated around 200,000 years ago, most of us still lived as nomadic hunter-gatherers until around 10,000 years ago, when agriculture started allowing for the formation of permanent settlements, trade, cooperation and the formation of complex societies.

If you start the clock those 200,000 years ago, we’ve only lived in societies for 5% of our existence, and in complex societies for less than 2%. The skills most useful for flourishing during the other 95% of our history aren’t equally useful today, yet they continue to determine many of our responses to modern challenges. Essentially, we’re pattern-making creatures, who’ve survived through being able to do things like predict the movements of animals and the changes of seasons. We look for structure, and we’re so well-trained and efficient at this it happens without thinking – and perhaps often in ways that are entirely inappropriate to a more complex modern world

[adrianh]

Well here is another thing worth thinking about: We did more damage to the environment in that 2% of time where we live in complex societies than the entire 98% where we didn't. Another thing is population growth. Our population growth is exponential and the curve is now practically straight up

[tec0]

Leadership more often than not bestows bearing upon its nation. They can do so via the media or with a believe system. As they amass momentum it is almost impossible to create enough friction to bring the masses to a stop and take a second look. Reality and truths has no meaning once the momentum peaks and maximum velocity can be maintained with perpetual historic events that keeps the old fears and truths alive.

So there is no sheep mentality when it comes to following leadership "any" leadership. There is only cause and reaction. If you join the masses the cause will be aimed at their intentions and the outcome will be whatever they wish it to be. If you don’t join the masses you become an instant outcast and with it consequences.

Simple physics can calculate the rest but I fear that emotionally you will find some systems are spinning out of control and it will cripple its intended path eventually like truck spinning out of control on a highway. It will take some time to restore function and then the system will just repeat itself. By its design the system cannot change because there is no alternative.