Are you a sheep?

[tec0]

I had already said that the contradiction was, in effect, more apparent than real -- and that the point was well made

As regards the "common good syndrome", I am inclined to substitute it with "self interest". Firstly it is difficult to see how the common good is served by bad things? So when you go along with nonsense you, in effect, are failing to serve the common good, even though that is your "excuse".

I think it is more correct to say that the motive, in these situations, is self interest. So you have a mother lying to cover up the fact that her husband has committed murder. The common good (societal) is certainly not served by the lie. However her own interests are.

I think the same holds true as regards the example of the pack you have adverted to. It is in this sense that we have ANC voting against their consciences. I do not believe, for a nano second, that they believe the common good is being served.

The above applies to situations of obvious wrong. If one cannot be sure that one's own stance is correct, then "compromise" is indicated. That is not what we are concerned with when we talk about being " a sheep".

I find it difficult to sustain someone else's prospects and demands. Especially if my own is absented in there train of thought. Thus a single-minded liberation occurred and today we call it a "dog eats dog world" The concept however is as old as greed itself.

Serving self-interest or the common good amounts to the same thing to a point. That said the question needs to be raised; who's common good are you serving? Your own? You're leader's vision?

Fact is how many decisions is placed on necessity/survival and how many of them can be contributed to "group pressure" and social laws? The answer to this question my bring a better understanding to what a mob mentality really is. A shared necessity… There is safety in numbers and we can survive in groups.

Bing completely alone in every decision is a scary prospect and it asks for more than just a mindset and will. It asks for utter commitment and facing the consequences alone. Fact being alone in everything is against our very human nature.

So maybe we are sheep because we have to be?

[wynn]

Hold those thoughts!!
I just need to refill my coffee cup and make some popcorn, this promises to become good entertainment.

[Blurock]

@adrian - maybe you should read my post again. I am not promoting any church or religion which is man made. I do however choose to live believing that there is a God, than to live believing that there is no God and then finding out that I was wrong.

[Martinco]

I do however choose to live believing that there is a God, than to live believing that there is no God and then finding out that I was wrong.

[vieome]

Gold Star post Chris, really enjoyed reading that.

random thought!
Hypothetically if we say that in a nation of sheep, 1% are aware that they are not sheep, this one percent then spreads its belief and frees some sheep from the herd mind, and these become the goats, then more and more sheep become goats(revolution). A new herd mind is formed from the goats who have cleansed themselves of the sheep mind, and in a sense the new goats become the sheep of the goat herd mind.

Larry Wachowski "human beings have this—you know, we're social animals, it's like so much of our reality is our construction based on communication. We have a point of view about the world and we validate it through finding another human being that has a similar point of view, and thus we say ahhh! You know, it's like, because we can't really know anything, so if we just get enough people together, we can believe in castles in the sky..."

[adrianh]

...and of course God isn't going to work out that you simply applied Pascal's Wager.

Look, we all have different beliefs and we all have the right to it. I am just way to skeptical to buy into religion. I do think though that we agree about spirituality on some level. Maybe on the level of the belief in the interconnectedness of all things.

[Mike C]

Bluerock is saying something important, and I think that we are being sidetracked into discussing where these perceptions of right and wrong come from. Steven Covey, in his book "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" would agree with Bluerock in suggesting that there are basic principles or natural laws which are not esoteric, mysterious or religious ideas. Things such as fairness, integrity, honesty, human dignity, excellence, potential etc. seem to exist in all human beings, regardless of social conditioning.
Let's also, in our discussion remember that we must take into account, not only the worst of the human condition, but also the highest that people strive for - and some even achieve.

[Phil Cooper]

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
WINSTON CHURCHILL

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right.
H.L. MENCKEN

Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear.
ALAN COREN

Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.
OSCAR WILDE

Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time.
E.B. WHITE

Democracy is when the indigent, and not the men of property, are the rulers.
ARISTOTLE

[adrianh]

@Phil Cooper - too true

[Blurock]

Bluerock is saying something important, and I think that we are being sidetracked into discussing where these perceptions of right and wrong come from. Steven Covey, in his book "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" would agree with Bluerock in suggesting that there are basic principles or natural laws which are not esoteric, mysterious or religious ideas. Things such as fairness, integrity, honesty, human dignity, excellence, potential etc. seem to exist in all human beings, regardless of social conditioning.
Let's also, in our discussion remember that we must take into account, not only the worst of the human condition, but also the highest that people strive for - and some even achieve.

You may also find this in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[Mike C]

The spirit of democracy is not a mechanical thing to be adjusted by abolition of forms. It requires change of heart.
Mahatma Gandhi

Democracy is worth dying for, because it's the most deeply honourable form of government ever devised by man.
Ronald Reagan

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.
Voltaire

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

[wynn]

I would propose that the reason humans have an inate sense of what is right (moral) and wrong (immoral) is that over the millenia we, as a species, have tried every possible system and found that we get the best results as a group/tribe/nation by respecting others rights as well, not just your own.

At present (that is the last few thousand years)we are in a, religion is the blueprint for society model.
As we can see there are now a number of behemoth monotheist religions who tend to want to impose their rules on society to the exclusion of others.

In a few more thousand years (the near future in the scheme of things) we will have some or other model to follow, if we survive as a species.

[adrianh]

How can you say that humans have an innate sense of right and wrong? Unless this can be shown by scientific study it is merely an opinion. The thing to keep in mind is that social model has always offered some group within the religion special privilidges. The masses are to do something or the other for the church. Why are so many religions based on the fear of the unknown and the notion that you will get a noddy badge if you are a good boy. How is it that if you follow a couple of rules and kowtow you get to live happily forever - its a bit too easy if you ask me. How come none of the relious texts have anything to say about how to care for animals, or the earth for that matter, I would have expected a bit about nuclear weapons, genocide, world wars, space travel, aliens, science, natural laws but all there is is little anecdotes about unimportant things that are significant to 20,000 people 2000 years ago. Remember, there was a time when only a select few were allowed to read and write, the working class are expected to give 10% to the church, etc. We call it morality, we have gone around this circle many times, the notion of morality is a social standard of the time.

We have to seperate spirituality from religion. I would think that all people have some sense of spirituality because we all wonder where we come from and why we are here. Religion is then thrust upon people as a means of control. There is nothing better to control a man than to provide him with all the answers to the eternal questions. But remember that the answers have riders of conformity. Of course if you are a Zen Buddhist then the only conformity is for you to find yourself and in so doing find your own connection to the greater universe.

Call me cynical, I am for sure. I cannot accept a circular dogma that answers questions by saying that the answers are pulled out of thin air. How is it that when God speaks to you then you are truly spiritual but when Napoleon speaks to you you are Shizophrenic. How come you can quote any sentence out of context even though that sentence contradicts another? Howcome one group gets to murder another yet both believe that they are right and serving their diety. The Germans and the British mothers both prayed for their sons to be spared. How come when one asks these questions you are told that the questions are irrelevant because the diety does what he does and he has plan.

The western world created a model based on consumption, consume to make more to consume more. We live our lives chasing the buck to buy more trinkets to be better than others who buy useless trinkets. We are unable to care for ourselves unless we are supported by all sorts of system, running water, electricity, etc. The problem is that we are breeding and consuming faster and faster. Its not going to take long for the entire stack of cards to come down. Our lives are centered around absurdities, money; a notional concept that describes our worth, trinkets; cars, houses, cellphones and other totally over the top assets that describe our standing in society. As far as I am concered, we are going to cause ourselves to have to reevaluate our way of life, when the bubble bursts, its not going to be the wealthiest man left standing, its going to be the man who knows how to live off the land.

Anyway, these are thought that roll around in my head and are not directed at anybody. It is merely the ramblings of a person who has many more questions than answes. I'll say this much, the older I get the more I know that I actually nothing for sure. Our lives are based on models based on our perceptions, our perceptions are easily fooled and our models are never perfect. We are happy to accept that a photon is wave or a particle depending on how we choose to observe it but this model may simply be incomplete because we are using inappropriate tools to make our observations, yet we believe that we know evrything there is to know about religion. For how long exactly did we believe the world to be flat and the earth to be the centre of the universe? Call me doff, but I do not 'believe' anything, I simply accept that some models are more appropriate than others until better models come along.

[tec0]

Indeed if anything everything is best guess. I cannot argue with this as it is the bases of science. What of spirituality? Well it seems that it is the sum of all fears. We fear that there is a deity and we did wrong by its laws. Or that there is no deity and the afterlife will be an echo of nothingness and thoughtlessness. Regardless death and spirituality remains a scary uncertainty.

So are we sheep-people? It comes down to your choices really. Every choice will break a link or create a link, that I think is the reality of the situation. Does it matter? Only if you want it to matter… The answer is really that simple. I also think we do things that benefit us. Sometimes we make sacrifices. Depending on the benefit or sacrifice you may end up acting alone or in a group. It boils down to the situation at hand really.

But it doesn’t really matter, we don’t matter because most of us will have good lives or bad lives, regardless we will probably not end up in the history books. Truth is in less than a hundred years from now people may not remember us at all. Nor will they care what we thought to be true or what we held dear.

In the end it is all just a drop in the ocean

[adrianh]

Are we sheep?
Of course we all are to some degree. The question is not whether we are sheep, but whether we can survive if we stray to far from the herd.