Are you a sheep?

[tec0]

It is apparent that, understandably, the point of the thread has because confused with some more exotic philosophy.

It is not about what is right or wrong in terms of any particular test such as morality or philosophy.

It is concerned with people opting for the wrong option, in terms of their own understanding of the difference between right and wrong. As said, many just decide to follow the camp leadership position for no other reason than to be part of the herd even, in terms of their own understanding, that position is wrong.

Obviously we will genuinely differ on a whole range of matters/issues. The post is not concerned with views and beliefs genuine and sincerely held.

It is concerned with submerging one's own understanding of what is right in order to follow a wrong path as part of a herd.

I may not agree with you on this. People agree with something because they want the same. As an example, let's say you go to the municipality office. Your hands are shaking with anger frustration knowing that the bill is so high that you will not be able to pay it.

But you also know for a fact the bill is wrong. Thanks to a third party instrument that is correctly installed and certified to give you a correct reading.

The municipal worker insists that you pay the bill NOW or face all kinds of penalties chargers and even the risk that you may end up black listed. Now another person at the back starts to scream franticly picking up lose furniture and attacking the guard for reasons unknown.

At this point you are angry, you are frustrated and this person before you has every intention to take your Livelihood away. What do you do?

The answer is simple you will react with the person and become violent because you feel it is the right choice. OR you don't… now each option will represent a group. There is no getting around it.

Every situation will cause a group mentality.

[Dave A]

I may not agree with you on this.

And then your example supports Chris's point?

[tec0]

So I did, basically I wanted to show that it is not always a group mentality and that sometimes we react purely because the situation existed and one had limited options on how to react.

[ChrisNG53]

Chris I am not confused. Most people follow rules although they know that the rules are rubbish. We follow the rubbish rules because we accept the the law or the religious powers that be made those rules and we are supposed to follow them. The fact that I don't buy beer on a Sunday is not because I think the rule is good, I think its a stupid rule but I have no choice in the matter.

Now be this all as it may, I still contend the the population is programmed to follow rules (mostly legal and religious) and are also programmed to do as their leaders and elders tell them (The Judge, the Priest, the school teacher). They are taught to shut up and follow those rules and if they do they will be good citizens, stay out of jail and go to heaven...

...but we expect them to think for themselves.

Nowhere, not in church, school or even university are people taught how to think. They are taught to act like sheep and to follow the herd, be it on a narrow path.

I could not agree more ... and I suppose that I should have qualified the post by including the reality that, when you are compelled to "conform", you are not being a sheep, provided that, in your mind, you are aware of being so compelled. It is a fine distinction,but valid.
So I suppose we have a whole segment of folk that are "sheep under sufferance", lol.

Your penultimate point has bugged me all my life ... for being so frustratingly true. If I were a dictator tomorrow, the first thing I would do is to decree that philosophy be made a compulsory subject right from junior school stage.

Your last point appears to contradict what goes before, but this is only on a simplistic take of your post. The point is, in fact, well taken.

[adrianh]

The last point doesn't contradict what goes before. What I mean is this. As one specializes more and more the path that you are on narrows, but the path still tends to follow the herd (although the herd is smaller) Look at scientists, they tend to stick together in tight knit packs. Those little communities can be totally irrational when it comes to views of scientists that are no part of the group. They would fight tooth and nail if a view doesn't fit in with theirs. The thing is, all the members of the pack may not hold the exact same view, they become brothers in arms for their "common good"

Now here is a dangerous phrase that fits in nicely with what you've been saying Chris "The common good" - people do things that they do not always agree with; in the guise of doing it for "The common good"

[ChrisNG53]

The last point doesn't contradict what goes before. What I mean is this. As one specializes more and more the path that you are on narrows, but the path still tends to follow the herd (although the herd is smaller) Look at scientists, they tend to stick together in tight knit packs. Those little communities can be totally irrational when it comes to views of scientists that are no part of the group. They would fight tooth and nail if a view doesn't fit in with theirs. The thing is, all the members of the pack may not hold the exact same view, they become brothers in arms for their "common good"

Now here is a dangerous phrase that fits in nicely with what you've been saying Chris "The common good" - people do things that they do not always agree with; in the guise of doing it for "The common good"

I had already said that the contradiction was, in effect, more apparent than real -- and that the point was well made

As regards the "common good syndrome", I am inclined to substitute it with "self interest". Firstly it is difficult to see how the common good is served by bad things? So when you go along with nonsense you, in effect, are failing to serve the common good, even though that is your "excuse".

I think it is more correct to say that the motive, in these situations, is self interest. So you have a mother lying to cover up the fact that her husband has committed murder. The common good (societal) is certainly not served by the lie. However her own interests are.
I think the same holds true as regards the example of the pack you have adverted to. It is in this sense that we have ANC voting against their consciences. I do not believe, for a nano second, that they believe the common good is being served.

The above applies to situations of obvious wrong. If one cannot be sure that one's own stance is correct, then "compromise" is indicated. That is not what we are concerned with when we talk about being " a sheep".

[Blurock]

I think sometimes we are just too damn lazy to get off our butts to do something about all the crap we are chirping about. Its much easier to leave it all to someone else to do.

This is evident in corporate institutions, in government and all over. In bodies corporate is is even more noticeable. It is always the same small group of individuals who sees that things get done. The others just agree to everything because it is easier to just do nothing.

[Butch Hannan]

I have come in rather late on this one but I find it very interesting. My first reaction is "to sheep or not to sheep" Just about every creature on this earth of ours has an inborn herd instinct. Humanity is different from the other species in that it can choose what herd it belongs to. Much mention is made about the concept of what we consider right and wrong whether this is based on religious, legal or moral grounds. I believe that when an individual starts compromising his beliefs and morals he is then in troubled waters. If you have to justify doing or supporting anything that you know is wrong then you are on the wrong track. Unfortunately most of our population in South Africa are battling to just stay alive. They will tell you they have freedom!! I believe that this occupies their minds most of the time so that they do not question what the Government is doing. A wake up call for our citizens would be if our people in power were prosecuted for all their wrongdoings and received lengthy jail sentences. What makes them different from us ordinary citizens.

[adrianh]

How does a cannibal "know" that the rest of us frown on his way of life? The notion of "when an individual starts compromising his beliefs and morals he is then in troubled waters" is very problematic. What about the Sociopath - he has absolutely no idea other than what he is told. Do you run around with an R5 when the goverment says its the right thing to do even though you feel its a crock? Do you always tell the truth and nothing but the truth when your kids ask you awkward questions or do you tell white lies? Again, the problem goes to social norms. Zuma believes that it is perfectly ok to have 6 wives. Moslems believe it is perfectly ok to do all the things that they do. How does one judge what is right and wrong, using religion - difficult to do considering there are so many flavours (even of the same basic religion), the law - it has been proved over and over that the application of the law is a total farce.

I do not profess to have the answers, but I can clearly see that the answers are not black n white - they are shades of grey determined by the lens you are looking through.

[Blurock]

How does a cannibal "know" that the rest of us frown on his way of life?

I suppose it also has to do with evolution and civilisation. An uncivilised cannibal knows that his actions are harmful, but for him it is satisfying his basic needs and he does not care about anyone else. Same as the bunch of uncivilised animals who raped the retarded girl in Soweto...

People know when they do wrong and when their actions are harmful to others and to nature.

God gave ALL of us the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. That is what differentiates us from animals, no matter which religion you are from. It is up to us to listen to God's word and to do onto others what we expect others to do onto ourselves.

[adrianh]

hmmm...I think we should agree to disagree on this one given that there are so many opposing views who all believe that they are right and that their way is God's way.

[Mike C]

At the risk of curtailing the discussion (which is not my intention) this thread makes me look back with happy memories to the many hours spent over a mug of coffee/glass of wine as a student discussing various beliefs, norms, values, rules and philosophies. Ah - good times!

Whereas it expanded our minds and challenged our own thinking, I don't know that it did very much to change the world.

Just like the illustration used in starting this thread:-

... young lads at boarding school, we all claimed to be having sex during which process the girl would faint at the moment of penetration, whilst emitting a huge sigh of unbearable pleasure and surrender. These claims were shared with general enthusiasm, contributing to social bonding, comradeship and friendship. Some even paid others a fag or two for their "secret" as to how to make a girl succumb more spectacularly!
The reality was very different. No one was having sex.

So I tend to end up asking - what can we do (or what can I do)? Am I a sheep? To be brutally honest - yes. There are times that I am a sheep. But there are also times that I am a goat - and sometimes even a shepherd.

I presume that the essence of this discussion is to challenge us to look at ourselves - and to see if we can change or if we even want to change some things in and around us.

[AndyD]

I suppose it also has to do with evolution and civilisation. An uncivilised cannibal knows that his actions are harmful, but for him it is satisfying his basic needs and he does not care about anyone else.

Peoples perception of what's right and what's wrong is formed by the environment they live in. Why would a cannible perceive that killing a person to feed his family is wrong? Surely he would see it as putting food on the table.

God gave ALL of us the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. That is what differentiates us from animals,

The way people interpret Gods word has lead to some of the worst human behaviour in history. It's been the cause of deep rooted hatred that's lead to acts of genocide and wars and it's been the cause of some of the worst human rights violations ever committed.

[Blurock]

Peoples perception of what's right and what's wrong is formed by the environment they live in. Why would a cannible perceive that killing a person to feed his family is wrong? Surely he would see it as putting food on the table.

The way people interpret Gods word has lead to some of the worst human behaviour in history. It's been the cause of deep rooted hatred that's lead to acts of genocide and wars and it's been the cause of some of the worst human rights violations ever committed.

I agree that organised religion has been the cause of millions of people being killed over the centuries. I believe that God's word is not organised religion. It is being quiet enough to hear the voice of reason. It your conscience. It is believing in right and wrong and doing the right thing.

Too many people think that a specific church, sect or religion will get them into paradise. There may be a lot of surprised people at the judgement day. Those people that shape religion into some self-serving club with man made rules...

We may all have different perceptions of God, but we all know right from wrong.

[adrianh]

@Bluerock - your arguement doesn't make sense - to believe that there is such a thing a judgement day or paradise for that matter one has to believe in a particular flavour of religion. These notions are rather meaningless to those who believe in reincarnation. How can religion not be of man made rules? I've never seen anybody or anything come and make rules of any sort. We blindly accept that Emperor Constantine's assemblage of stories is the be all and the end all, whatabout the stories that didn't fit his particular bill and were simply discarded.

We have to agree to disagree on this too. The world is not black or white and right and wrong is not a simple straight line that can be drawn by anybody at a whim because they feels it to be so. Right and wrong is a social standard. We do have built in notions of fairless, which generally entail "why should you have more than I do" and a built in cooprative drive (to a degree provided that I benefit from the cooperation) but thats about it.