The President is to be commended

[Chatmaster]

ChrisNG53 thank you for clarifying your point.

If there is one phenomena I am unable to understand it is the incredible gratefulness towards the ANC for ending apartheid. This is very tragic, because what I recall and what was historically documented is in many ways the complete opposite from what is being told and believed by many today. It is as-if the ANC were able to rewrite history without anyone challenging them. Even academics from universities all over the country and internationally are writing books about these so-called facts.

Even with the JM hate speech trial it became clear, that through the years they took credit from individuals and other organisations such as the PAC and got away with it and simply ignored the facts. The Madiba (Who imho was a true leader at a later stage in his life) phenomina and international press played a significant role in giving them a status which they didn't deserve.

The irony is that they had very little to do with it. But the topic of tumbling apartheid is very complex indeed, with many different views from very different frames of reference.

If I think back about detail regarding the apartheid era and the absolute sickening things that clouded the minds of white people I am just thankful that I grew up in a home where my parents taught us to respect people regardless of race. I cannot imagine how it must have felt for non-whites to see "Whites Only" everywhere, being insulted, being treated like scum just because of their skin colour, or mmmm maybe, mmmmmmm I wonder... is history repeating itself?

You do not owe the ANC any gratitude, rather realize that you owe your gratitude to many different people, organisations, media etc. that stood up and said enough of this insanity and the millions of people that gave FW De Klerk the mandate to end apartheid.

The whites were safe and in many ways isolated from the EVIL terror acts that played itself out on borders and in townships and the sickening methods that the SADF, SAP, ANC and PAC etc. used hardly effected them. The majority of them voted yes for what was right.

But people seem to forget so easily...

[Martinco]

The irony is that they had very little to do with it. But the topic of tumbling apartheid is very complex indeed, with many different views from very different frames of reference.

If you have the opportunity then read the book on the life of Pik Botha which illustrates and supports the statement above very clearly.

[ChrisNG53]

@Martinco - thank you. Your point has great validity.

Still I am grateful to the ANC, as I am to all those brave folk, such as Helen Suzman that were prepared to stand up against apartheid.

[Dave A]

I wonder if race and racial identity is really our problem here - at times I can't help thinking that the real problem is the dysfunctional political identity of our central player, the ANC.

Just what is the political identity of the ANC?

The party claims to be a broad church embracing multiple social ideologies. I suggest this traces back to a positioning as a "people's government in exile" during the apartheid era, but is it tenable today now that they are the majority party with their hands on the reins of power?

The party is currently controlled by a group that has a strong penchant for the very worst traits of elitist capitalism (corruption, nepotism, patronage and largesse), joined at the ballot box with a grouping with fairly extreme socialist ideologies (if the SACP and COSATU ideologies are actually seperable). How on earth can we expect a stable, congruent political direction from such a bizarre pairing?

And more to the topic of this thread - what is the glue that is keeping this pairing together?

Well, much of it is brand power of course. Brand loyalty is as powerful a force in politics as it is in business. And I suggest if it wasn't for the brand power of the ANC label, the elitist capitalists and the socialists would have parted ways a long time ago already.

But brand loyalty has to be maintained or it will wane, and here's where the problems really start.

This is turning into a lengthy post. It's getting late and perhaps it wouldn't hurt to break this up some. So I'll pick up on my line of thought in this tomorrow.

(Bullet point reminders to self:
Culture of debt.

Points of focus.

It's a package deal. (What are you backing?))

[ChrisNG53]

@DaveA - perfectly put so far.

When you conclude you need to include -
1. operational mode;
2 operational culture;
3. mission and
4. vision.

[wynn]

SACP and COSATU members are guilty of double and triple parking.
Most of the 'Allies' are firstly ANC supporters and members (maybe not paid up members)
Some then belong to COSATU then the SACP, some belong to all three.
Take out the duplications, triplications and the numbers of the 'Allies' becomes a moot point.
Within the alliance they are a large lobby perhaps punching above their weight.
If they were forced to belong to one or the other 'Allied' membership numbers would plummet.

[wynn]

The other thing is that JZ is actually the 'Spokesperson' for the ANC NEC, He does not have a mandate to do things on his own, if he did he would be drummed out faster than you could say 'Polokwane'

He is doing a fabulous job of doing nothing not aproved by the NEC, that is why he seems to take no sides in most matters.

Even crapping on Malema is only done at the behest of the NEC, that is why he sits on the same stage smiling even when 'Kiddy Amin' is doing an 'Uhuru Number'!

[slowboat]

@Dave A, my sentiments exactly.

I don't think race is the issue, at least not the primary issue, more a motive that requires an old enemy in new clothing. Create the perception that the previous oppressor is the minority elite capitalist and that it should be shared equally. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, it is the very same organisation that is the true culprit. The "brand" is the only thing keeping it together, as it does seem COSATU and the SACP have put their weight behind the ANCYL and not the ANC, but require them to achieve the strength needed or maybe just the time to achieve their own agenda's. There have been a number of times where he has made comments or statements that are commendable, but to be honest only after there has been a call for it. Then again maybe I am just over analizing...:-)

[Dave A]

Seems like everyone's got the gist of where I was heading. The ANC has more to gain in keeping the race topic hot rather than cooling it down. Certainly far better than engaging in real debate on the substantial issues that have such divergent views within the party.

The "burden of debt" issue that Chris mentioned also caught my eye - not so much because Chris feels that way, but because it has emerged that this is a concept the ANC is actively promoting - not only in canvassing for votes but in raising funds. There were reports in the run-up to the local municipal elections that in some areas business owners were approached for funding on exactly that basis - "you owe us". Does make you wonder about the adjudication and awarding of tenders (I have literally been promised a far better chance of winning tenders by joining the ANC business forum ), but let's focus on "debt" voting for a moment.

What is the purpose of a vote?
Are you voting for your future or your past?

Answer that and I suggest you'll find your "debt" has already been paid in full.

[Justloadit]

(I have literally been promised a far better chance of winning tenders by joining the ANC business forum )

When I took this option some years back for a grand fee, it never worked for me, just got invitations for paying dinners to meet the party leaders and plenty of calls to help the cause financially, but then again I do not travel at the very top circles so it was a waste of time and money. It is one avenue in which they get income, from the joining fee and the donations and income from dining with the elite.