The Great Crime Debate

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  • duncan drennan
    Email problem

    • Jun 2006
    • 2642

    #16
    Originally posted by Dave A
    Chairperson of the Civil Society Initiative, Roelf Meyer, agreed that crime with a "violent element" should be researched. Reasons for the "mindset" must be found.
    This is the thing that eats me when I think about this whole topic, the big why, particularly with regards to violent crime. There must be something that we as a whole are doing (or have done) wrong, and there is this constant question of, "How can I change and act to improve this?" and "How do I help to accelerate the positive change?"

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    • Debbiedle
      Gold Member

      • Jun 2006
      • 561

      #17
      My personal opinion on why so violent?

      Desensitization!

      Television, movies, news, newspapers, magazines, playgrounds, rugby fields, soccer fields, family violence, government, the household, the township, the corner shop. We see it and hear it all the time. VIOLENCE and total disrespect. So do our kids. The more you hear and see it, the more "natural" it becomes!

      Imagine being born to a 16 year old, jobless person, sitting around the fire and hearing the screams around you from day 1. People, family and friends enter and leave your life all the time, daily, due to crime, AIDS, violence, strike action, accidents and other reasons associated with every day life.

      How can you NOT think this is the norm? With good parenting? But what if you parents believed this to be the norm?
      Regards

      Debbie
      debbie@stafftraining.co.za

      From reception to management training, assertiveness, accountability or interviewing skills, we have a wide range of training workshops available for you!
      www.stafftraining.co.za

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      • The DP Team
        Suspended
        • Mar 2007
        • 11

        #18
        The DP Team

        Yes dave Rattery and that guy will be walking in 18 years who killed him go look ate my site under prison title only 18 years and find what happened

        If there is anybody out there who can and will help me in the fight against crime please do so.
        Lets just stop the blabbering and do something toward the future of all of us and support me in helping raped and violated victims.
        Have a look at www.death-penalty.co.za or mail me on info@death-penalty.co.za for help mail me at help@death-penalty.co.za
        As,, please send me your comment to 36018 NB sms must start with "DP"
        All msg's will be posted on my site every 48 hour.
        From there we will take the comments and work with it in public so that everybody can give us their oppinion and we will find a way to live and work together. We did not ask to be here we are here so lets make the best of it and work together. It will make life easier for everybody.
        The Team at DP South Africa...

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        • Graeme
          Silver Member

          • Sep 2006
          • 253

          #19
          No Work = Crime?

          The hijacking of one of Dave’s work crews, whilst evincing feelings of outrage, lead on reflection to having us wondering why violent crime has gotten such a hold in SA.

          The apologists will say that it is because there is no work, therefore people resort to crime. Others will counter that there was work in rural areas but it was hard going and many found it easier to drift into the cities, build a shack and see what was to be found there. Others will say that they were driven out of tribal areas because there was no longer room for them there. And labour legislation that makes it almost impossible to discipline or fire workers means that hiring has come to a screeching halt.

          Whatever - they are here now, they cannot find work, and they won’t be sent back to the places they came from.

          Israel was faced with a similar problem (but without the crime) when it was founded - refugees from a shattered Europe migrated by the hundreds of thousands to the new State of Israel and having got there, housing and work had to be found for huge numbers of them. Israel met this challenge by establishing the Kibbutz system, which provided both work, housing (and except for a tiny minority of frontier Kibbutzes, a good place to bring up children) for countless thousands of people, both singles and family units. And much of the system soon turned a nice profit as well, which was theirs to keep and was and is used for improvements; the answer to that lies in the kibbutznicks’ own hands.

          Could not, should not, this system be tried here? Given the political will, these places should not be too difficult to establish - we have the land, we certainly have the money; the cost of a couple of modern fighter aircraft that no one here has the skills to fly would pay for the establishment of dozens of them. And if there are those who are not prepared to roll up their sleeves and work in the Kibbutz system but prefer instead to remain in the Cities to live a life of shack dwelling indolence, disease, begging, welfare support and crime, then they should be dealt with harshly - the no-work excuse falls away.

          Comment

          • Dave A
            Site Caretaker

            • May 2006
            • 22807

            #20
            It seems the tide is far from turning. The latest crime stats have got the opposition parties up in arms.
            The latest crime statistics released on Tuesday prove crime is out of control despite government assurances to the contrary, opposition parties said.

            "We are alarmed at the increase in murder [2,4%], the 118% increase in bank robberies, 52,5% increase in robberies at business premises, the 21,9% increase in cash-in-transit heists and the sharp increase in robberies at residential premises [25,4%]," Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) spokesperson Velaphi Ndlovu said in a statement.

            "It once again proves without doubt that crime is out of control in South Africa and that the levels of crime remain alarmingly high, despite empty government promises," he said.

            The IFP believed it again highlighted the need for increased visible policing at banks, business premises, shopping malls and within residential areas.

            Dianne Kohler-Barnard of the Democratic Alliance (DA) said the figures made a mockery of Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula's assurances to foreign business that the crime rate was under control.

            There had been some reported decreases, such as attempted murder (3%), rape (5,2%) and indecent assault (5,5%), but because the absolute figures were not yet available, actual performance to previous years could not be compared, she said.

            The Freedom Front Plus's Pieter Mulder agreed the statistics confirmed the public's view that crime was increasing and getting out of control.

            "These statistics make South Africa an unsafe country to live in."

            The increase in robberies at residential properties, murder, robberies with aggravated circumstances, and carjackings were especially upsetting.

            The world average for murder was five per 100 000 of the population, but in South Africa it was 40,5 per 100 000 -- eight times the world average.

            "In spite of this [Nqakula] says that crime is under control and the outlook appears to be rosy.

            "As long as the minister stays in this state of denial, crime will not be properly combated," Groenewald said.

            Dr Johan Burger, senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies in Pretoria, told the Mail & Guardian Online on Tuesday that while the figures were in line with expectations, the increase in violent crimes -- most of which had consistently decreased over the last 13 years -- was particularly disturbing.

            He said that aggravated robbery, which showed a positive downward trend from a high in 2003, seems also to have taken a turn for the worse.

            Robberies at business premises increased by 52,5% and robberies at residential premises increased by 25,4%.

            Burger said the increase in house robberies was one of the "most serious as far as people's perceptions are concerned".

            Nqakula said that aggravated robberies have had a devastating effect on the psyche of the nation,

            Armed robbery increased by 4,6%, with the biggest proportion (72,7%) street robberies, where dangerous weapons were used, the police report shows.

            "Given that those robberies are accompanied by bloodletting where heavy calibre firearms are used by organised criminal gangs and that innocent bystanders are often caught in the cross-fire, and the fact that these incidents happen in broad daylight, on our roads and streets and around banks and shopping malls, they've had a devastating effect on the psyche of the nation."

            Nqakula also said that a study was under way to determine why two thirds of all serious and violent crimes happened between people who knew each other and why there was so much violent crime in South Africa.

            "The fact that instances of serious and violent crime are very high is disconcerting and unacceptable," said Nqakula.
            full story from M&G here
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            • Graeme
              Silver Member

              • Sep 2006
              • 253

              #21
              Brett Kebble

              An interesting article by Stephen Mulholland in this week's FINWEEK: It would seem that the trustees of the estate of the late Brett Kebble are trying to extract from the ANC and various of its manifestations R24 million of OPM (other people's money) that Kebble gave them. A legal argument has developed over the notion of "dispositions without value"; the trustees claiming that the ANC was the recipient of OPM that was stolen and that it and its various branches and individuals received those funds without providing any value for them. Thus, demands the trustees, the courts must order the ANC to return the funds to the Kebble estate.

              In what Business Day described as a "remarkable admission" the ANC has argued in court that Kebble did, in fact, receive value for his money. In doing that one assumes, as a layman, that the ANC acknowledges the principle of "disposition without value". In other words, the ANC agrees that if someone gives you something that he has stolen and receives nothing in return from you, then the money goes back to the to the party from whom it was stolen. Sounds logical and fair. Having done so it's incumbent, clearly, on the ANC to describe the value that it alleges Kebble received.

              So what did Kebble receive for the R24 million? Mendi Msimang, treasurer-general of the ANC offers: "He (Kebble) had an office in Melrose Arch, where he worked surrounded by the singing of birds and tranquillity of the northern suburbs (and) he owned approximately five properties in Bishops court (in Cape Town)". Kebble enjoyed his success, avers Msimang, because of the "gallant effort and contribution of the ANC" in providing a political climate in which those such as Kebble might prosper.

              This Msimang is the husband of Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, our Health Minister and garlic and beetroot protagonist.

              Mulholland wishes the trustees good luck in ever seeing that loot again.
              Last edited by Dave A; 05-Jul-09, 08:28 AM.

              Comment

              • duncan drennan
                Email problem

                • Jun 2006
                • 2642

                #22
                Originally posted by Graeme
                So what did Kebble receive for the R24 million? Mendi Msimang, treasurer-general of the ANC offers: “He (Kebble) had an office in Melrose Arch, where he worked surrounded by the singing of birds and tranquillity of the northern suburbs (and) he owned approximately five properties in Bishops court (in Cape Town)”. Kebble enjoyed his success, avers Msimang, because of the “gallant effort and contribution of the ANC” in providing a political climate in which those such as Kebble might prosper.
                That should come with a coffee warning

                (not that I'm saying they don't strive to do this, but man, you gotta love that response!)

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                • Chatmaster
                  Platinum Member

                  • Aug 2006
                  • 1065

                  #23
                  I resigned out of the SAPS back in 1994 and one of the main issues I had back then was the lack of proper leadership that was moving in on the mid senior levels. They were starting to make changes that we currently see the result of. One of the biggest changes that made me extremely unhappy back then was the appointment of graduates from outside the SAPS into top positions within the SAPS.

                  This changed alot of the discipline and pride within the SAPS. I remember whilst being an instructor at Maleoskop, I had one of the founding members of Task Force as a commander and a Pshycologist as a 2 IC. 2 years later the 2 IC was the General in charge of national training and there was huge changes made to the foundation of the SAPS. Sad to say, but then '93-94 everything changed to worse already. That same mentality is still applying, where sivilians are in charge of the safety and security of our country.

                  Closing statement:
                  There is more discipline in our private security than in our SAPS atm.
                  Roelof Vermeulen (Entrepreneurship in large organizations)
                  Enterprise Art Management Software| Rock flaps south africa

                  Comment

                  • Dave A
                    Site Caretaker

                    • May 2006
                    • 22807

                    #24
                    Not everyone is happy with the improved numbers on reported rapes.

                    The 5 percent decline in the number of rapes and indecent assaults that was reported to police over the past year is no cause to celebrate.

                    Instead, the dip should trigger alarm bells, according to experts in the field who this week warned that more and more reports were coming in about rape complainants being turned away by police keen to see statistics dip.

                    Most organisations active in the field say the rape statistics contained in the police report on crime between April 2006 and March 2007 have little meaning; these crimes are not ones that police alone can prevent; and police performance in tackling sexual offences should be measured by arrests and convictions, not by the incidents of crime reported.
                    full story from IOL here
                    Of course, there was also the police restructure last year that did away with the specialised units. Could this also be a factor?
                    Participation is voluntary.

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                    • Dave A
                      Site Caretaker

                      • May 2006
                      • 22807

                      #25
                      Street justice

                      A return to old ways?
                      Three men accused of rape were beaten and hacked to death by an angry crowd in KwaMashu recently.

                      A passer-by noticed a crowd and stopped to see what had happened. He caught a glimpse of the three men lying on the ground, being kicked around "like soccer balls".

                      He recorded what was happening on his cellphone video.

                      The crowd continued to beat the men, and eventually severed their heads and limbs with bush knives.

                      As the dismembered bodies lay in a pool of blood, the crowd dispersed as if nothing had happened.

                      Mob justice had just run its grisly course - a not infrequent occurrence in South Africa, a country with a long history of communities dispensing swift retribution to those suspected of wrongdoing.

                      During the apartheid era, township kangaroo courts delivered stern punishment, including death by a burning tyre "necklace", to people suspected of collaborating with the state.

                      Nowadays, when a community takes the law into its own hands to become the judge-jury-and-execution team it still wants no truck with the establishment, but the reasons are no longer political.

                      Some experts say vigilante justice is the result of complex inter-related issues. A mob killing or beating a suspected rapist or robber may be less about delivering rough justice than about intimidating witnesses to the spectacle, as well as the "assertion of complete, repressive power".

                      At any rate for many administering "justice" on the streets, vigilantism does provide a ready alternative to the official system, which is seen as ineffective, at best.
                      full story from IOL here
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                      • duncan drennan
                        Email problem

                        • Jun 2006
                        • 2642

                        #26
                        I think mob justice is just about the worst thing that can occur. It breaks down the entire justice system. No more trial, just a witch hunt, regardless of your situation. The worst form is alluded to in the article - charismatic criminals using it against their witnesses. There is no reason at action in a mob.

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                        • Dave A
                          Site Caretaker

                          • May 2006
                          • 22807

                          #27
                          Why must we stay open just to be robbed?

                          This story is really close to home for me.
                          Fearful and frustrated KwaZulu-Natal businessmen in Red Hill and Greenwood Park believe they are under siege from criminals after a series of robberies.

                          They have resorted to closing early to avoid becoming victims. The businessmen say police have not informed them of progress in investigations.

                          Service stations in the area no longer offer 24-hour service.

                          North Coast Service Station owner Rajesh Tularam said: "We close at 10pm every day, and the service station down the road closes at 11pm."

                          Another businessman, who asked not to be named, has decided to sell his business and leave the country. "My business has been robbed four times in the past nine months. I provided surveillance footage of all the robberies to police, but I have heard nothing from them since then. In the last incident they shot at me. After that I decided to sell the shop and go to England. I can't take it anymore."
                          full story from IOL here
                          How do we break this vicious circle?

                          Crime causes people to reduce service provision or leave. Less investment and employment. Less money. More crime.
                          Participation is voluntary.

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                          • I Robot
                            Administrator

                            • May 2006
                            • 783

                            #28
                            B Mabandla: Regulation of Interception of Communication-related Information Amendment

                            Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, Brigitte Mabandla, on the Second Reading Debate of the Regulation of Interception of Communication and Provision of Communication-related Information Amendment Bill, National Assembly 29 August 2007

                            Madam Speaker
                            Honourable members

                            I think it may be appropriate to introduce this debate by making a few basic points which we tend to overlook when dealing with such a technical subject as the one before the House and which we are to decide on shortly.

                            The Act, being amended by the Bill was put on the Statute Book as a measure to combat serious crime. It regulates, very carefully, the manner in which private communications of persons may be intercepted and monitored. It does so in a way which does not offend the Constitution in any manner. The infringement of a person's right to privacy, which this Act permits, in very limited and circumscribed conditions, is justified on the grounds, among others, that the interception and monitoring of communications is necessary in order to detect, prevent and investigate serious crimes.

                            In short, it allows for interception only after a designated judge has authorised such interception at the request of any of the law enforcement agencies on an individual basis.

                            The Act envisages the "tapping" of phone calls, that is, landline phone calls, as well as cellular phone calls. The nature of the Act is therefore understandably comprehensive, detailed and technical in the extreme. One cannot imagine it being otherwise.

                            The Bill before us relates only to the interception of cellular phone calls. It was promoted at the instigation of the three mobile cellular operators jointly, that is Vodacom, MTN and Cell C. These service providers approached government when the implementation of the principal Act was receiving attention. They requested government not to implement sections 40 and 62(6) of the Act. These sections require persons who sell SIM cards and cell phones to record and store certain information of their clients, as well as the particulars of the SIM cards and the cell phones themselves.

                            These provisions, as they read at present, call for a paper-based registration process, section 40 dealing with the registration of clients after the commencement of that section and section 62(6) dealing with the registration of persons who are clients at the time this provision is implemented. The service providers proposed that this paper-based process be replaced by an electronic solution. That, in essence, is what the Bill is about. It provides for the electronic capturing of certain information to ensure that the principal Act is fully effective and to ensure the achievement of its objects.

                            I know that the Bill has been the subject of lengthy deliberations in and
                            outside of Parliament. It has been adapted by the Committee in numerous respects. I do not intend to deal with all aspects of the Bill, but would rather make a few general observations.

                            Since the Bill is aimed mainly at the registration and verification of certain particulars of owners of cellular phones and SIM cards, for instance, addresses and identity, failing which such persons will not be able to gain access to cellular phone services, some of the proposed new definitions in clause 1 indicate the Portfolio Committee's endeavours to ensure that as many persons as possible will be in a position to comply with the registration requirements, particularly persons who live in outlying areas who rely heavily on cellular phone services for access to numerous different basic services, for instance to obtain information about pension pay-outs and cellular phone banking. It is clear to me that every effort has been made to ensure that the distribution and availability of cell phone services are not compromised in any manner.

                            I am aware that there are still a number of aspects in the Bill in respect of which the service providers have reservations. The requirement whether to register the handset number (the IMEI number) or not, the implications the Bill will have on visitors to the country who wish to "roam" on our networks and the timeframes within which the registration of existing cellphone clients must be finalised, are some of the issues that have been raised by the service providers. We are now halfway through the Parliamentary process. The Bill still needs to be considered by the National Council of Provinces. I am therefore reluctant to go into the merits of these issues. I would rather let the Parliamentary process run its course.

                            I must, however, make my view known, namely that there can be no room for any gaps in this legislation. As I see it, the information specified in the Bill that is required to be captured is essential, not only for investigation purposes, but also as evidence in our courts. My sense is that the further deliberations on the Bill must be more on how to achieve what is already in the Bill rather than on what should or should not be in the Bill.

                            My plea to all stakeholders today is to facilitate the expeditious enactment of this Bill. We need to use all measures at our disposal to fight crime and every day that this Bill is delayed, is an extra day for criminals to use to their advantage in the planning and execution of crimes. On this note, I need to express the hope that the service providers have, in the run-up to the enactment of this Bill, used the time fruitfully in gearing themselves for what is likely to be required of them when the Bill is in place. Their proactive endeavours in this regard should enable them to finalise the registration process in respect of their existing clients far quicker than the 12 month period provided for in the Bill. As I have already said, we simply cannot allow for any further unnecessary delays.

                            I wish to express my appreciation to Ms Fatima Chohan and her Portfolio Committee members for their inputs and for their unanimous support of the Bill. It is clear they have spared no effort in trying to ensure that the final product does not detract from the objectives of the principal Act on the one hand, with as little disruption as possible to the service providers and the users of mobile cellular services, on the other.


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                            Last edited by Dave A; 21-Sep-07, 05:53 AM.
                            All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

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                            • duncan drennan
                              Email problem

                              • Jun 2006
                              • 2642

                              #29
                              Today's Fact-a-Day,

                              The number of South African adults who were victims of non-violent crime showed a 20% increase from 2006. A similar growth was recorded for violent crime. (AMPS 2006, 2007RA)

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                              • Loman
                                Silver Member

                                • Nov 2008
                                • 298

                                #30
                                Pirated DVD's in Mozambique cost about R35 - R90 depending on whether you look like a tourist or not.
                                I've seen some of them that are exactly like the original, covers printed on glossy paper, all of it sealed in plastic exactly like the real thing. Only if you open it up and remove the disc you might notice a difference, if you know what to look for.

                                That makes me wonder how many people are there that won't buy pirated dvd's but did buy them not knowing they weren't original.

                                A few years ago a dead giveaway that a cd, dvd or game is pirated is the printing on the disc was of poor quality, often faded. These days, its not that easy anymore, and if i was a gambler I'd bet its going to get harder still.
                                The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. - Robert Bloch

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