History not to be taught in our schools

[Butch Hannan]

Teaching history tends to perpetuate the agendas hidden or otherwise of the people in power. A lot of the things that you mention were actually legislated which makes it worse. They were not in the history books. Let us not forget that the Voortrekkers were actually running from a very oppressive British colonial rule. They were forced to study in English at the schools.

[tec0]

Well let us not forget that religion can also be an evil thing. And here is a bit of a history lesson:

1985 -- In one of the first major abuse cases to become public, Louisiana priest Gilbert Gauthe pleads guilty to 11 counts of molesting boys. He serves 10 years in prison.

1992 -- Massachusetts priest James Porter is charged with sexually abusing more than two dozen boys and girls. Porter, who pleads guilty and is sentenced to 18 to 20 years in prison, is the first case in what becomes a major scandal in the Boston diocese.

1992 – At a meeting in South Bend, Ind., the U.S Conference of Catholic Bishops acknowledges that some bishops have attempted to cover up abuse.

1996 -- Milwaukee's archbishop writes to Cardinal Ratzinger calling for canonical trials for two priests in his diocese who are accused of sexual abuse, including Murphy. He receives no response. Over the next two years, Wisconsin bishops will press for Murphy's dismissal but receive no encouragement from the Vatican.

1997 -- Maciel is charged with sexually abusing seminarians and boys in his care. Ratzinger orders the investigation closed.

1999 -- A Massachusetts court brings child rape charges against former priest John Geoghan. Throughout his career, Geoghan had been repeatedly accused of sexually molesting boys but was transferred from parish to parish until 1998, when he was finally defrocked.

2002 -- The Vatican issues guidelines for dealing with allegations of child sexual abuse by priests. It calls for all cases to be reported to Rome but makes no mention of reporting the charges to local criminal authorities.

2002 -- Geoghan is sentenced to up to 10 years in state prison. Boston Cardinal Bernard Law apologizes to Geoghan's victims, and the archdiocese pays $10 million to settle lawsuits brought by victims and their families.

Law and his top aides are accused of covering up allegations against pedophile priests. In December, on the day that he is scheduled to testify before a grand jury, Law goes to Rome, where he remains. A week later, he resigns as archbishop of Boston.

The following year, Geoghan dies in prison, murdered by a fellow inmate.

2004 -- A report commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops details allegations of child sexual abuse against Catholic priests between 1950 and 2002.

The report, by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, finds that more than 10,000 people have made such allegations during the period. Catholic dioceses are able to substantiate accusations against more than 4,000 priests in the U.S., about 4 percent of all priests who served during that time.

2004 -- The Portland, Ore., archdiocese files for bankruptcy, saying it has been drained by tens of millions of dollars in settlements paid to victims of sexual abuse by priests. Other dioceses follow suit, including those in Tucson, Ariz., Spokane, Wash., and Davenport, Iowa.

2005 -- Ratzinger is elected pope.

2006 -- A reopened Vatican investigation finds Maciel guilty of multiple acts of sexual abuse of minors. He is not defrocked but is ordered by Pope Benedict to stop his public ministry and adopt a "life of prayer and penitence."

2007 -- The San Diego diocese becomes the largest in the nation to file for bankruptcy, beset by more than 150 lawsuits alleging sexual abuse by about 60 priests.

Lawyers for the plaintiffs charge that the diocese chose bankruptcy to avoid having details of the abuse claims come out in court.

2007 -- The Archdiocese of Los Angeles agrees to pay $660 million to settle abuse claims brought by more than 500 people

2008 -- Pope Benedict announces that he is "deeply ashamed" by the sexual abuse scandals among priests in the U.S. He says the church will not allow pedophiles in the priesthood.

2010 -- Long-simmering allegations of priest sexual abuse come to the fore in Germany, Brazil and Ireland. One case alleges that when Pope Benedict was archbishop of Munich in the early 1980s, he approved the transfer of a priest who was accused of molesting boys. After then-Cardinal Ratzinger's departure, the priest was allowed to resume pastoral work, where he continued the pattern of abuse. A Vatican spokesman says the pope was not responsible for the priest's subsequent crimes.

Source:

http://www.vpr.net/npr/126160853/

So I am sticking with my guns on this one, history is a destructive tool if abuses but can be educational if used correctly. But history cannot be objective because there are always two sides to every coin... Now if only the one side is being told to cultivate hate... then clearly one must question motive.

And as the above have sown you, if religion is used for evil it can and will be devastating! Why would I allow my child “if I had children” to go to church with a “history” like the above mentioned.

The point I am making is that it is our responsibility as a parent to teach our children the truths of this world. Still it is easier to watch the “game” on TV then to sit down and teach them “because that is the teachers job anyway.”

[adrianh]

History should not be taught in schools

The point I am making is that it is our responsibility as a parent to teach our children the truths of this world

This is a circular argument - how do you know what the truth is if everytning you were taught, and everything you get from the media, is biased to start with.

Truth is bull$hit anyway - the human mind operates in shades of grey - not black and white - there is only perception and approximation.

The only thing you can teach your children is to keep an open mind and to look at things from different perspectives.

I agree that religion can be very destructive but it also serves its intended purpose which is to keep the general population in check through fear of the unknown. Get a hold of the following documentary: Zeitgeist.

[tec0]

Zeitgeist.

Yes well I have seen this documentary lots of times before and NO. The basic truth is we are not America. Here we are dealing with simple corruption not supper human bankers. The documentary may be true for America but here we are dealing with something else.

Right now South Africa is a haven for criminals of all kind there is simply no law anymore. As it stands it is every person for him or herself. We have seen our rights being stripped away and things are becoming hopeless to the point where children as young as 7 have committed suicide. I will say it again we are not America, our crime rate is responsible for 18000 deaths per year and that is excluding health related deaths and suicides.

[Butch Hannan]

You have reacted exactly as I thought you would tec0. A lot of the evils of this world have been caused by over zealous religions. Conversely a lot of the evils of this world have been changed for the better due to the efforts of organised religion. The churches on the opposite side of the Afrikaans Churches were in the forefront of bringing apartheid to an end in this country. In the town that I live in there would be a lot of very hungry people if it was not for the efforts of the local churches. At least they put their money where their mouth is by running feeding schemes. Various religions do an awful lot of good in this world.

Unfortunately a lot of people hijack religion for their own nefarious needs. They will eventually be judged one day and I would not like to be in their shoes when this judgement takes place.

Statistically the world has about 2.1 billion Christians followed by about 1.5 billion followers of the Islamic faith. Either approximately two thirds of the world population are correct or horribly misguided.

[tec0]

Well, I don’t believe in a church because people always want to point out that I am a clot. Then they will slam the good book down and belittle me even more by my so-called “lack of understanding” It is always my shortcomings that ends up in the spotlight.

Well I have become accustomed to ridicule and in the end I just thought it foolish because if people can make someone bad simply because they “will” it or “play you” for a fool then they are not using their intelligence correctly.

Belittling and gloating is the worst form of sarcasm. So I don’t particularly care if I burn in hell I hope I make for some entertainment for the many devils and demons. Why do I say this? Simple, people like yourself works with a simple law: “If you are not with me you are against me” and If am “against” you then I must be evil right?

Sorry but I learned a vital truth. My life was given to me and I will use it as I see fit. I don’t have to please you or explain my actions or point out the “good” that I do. Like history, religion became a weapon that no one is allowed to question. History has showed us that greed is as old as a lock and key. Not to mention that innocent women was executed by order of the church so that their land could be taken.

[adrianh]

But tec0, you once again have a circular argument - you said that:

Belittling and gloating is the worst form of sarcasm. So I don’t particularly care if I burn in hell I hope I make for some entertainment for the many devils and demons. Why do I say this? Simple, people like yourself works with a simple law: “If you are not with me you are against me” and If am “against” you then I must be evil right?

...yet this is exactly what you do.

You are so angry...

Look, I don't believe in religion and all that jazz either, and that is why I quoted Zeitgeist - not because of their views on politics but because of their views on religion - somehow you got stuck on part 2 of the documentary, which is odd because we have been talking about religion all along.

Anyway, humanity gives itself far to much credit, we are not the best thing since sliced bread and we are not as worthy of eternal life as we think we are.

To get back to where we started - wars have been fought over many issues, land, politics, skin colour, greed, religion, to help a friendly country or simply to piss somebody else off. You carry on about the Catholics and the little boys, yes there are some really bad priests, but then there are bad teachers, doctors, policemen, average women and men and Joe soap that strips his mo_r one night and kills his entire family. The bottom line is that you have to keep an open mind and not be a bigot yourself.

Should history and religion be taught in school, it doesn't really matter if it is or not. I have 2 daughters, 9 & 11 and we do homework with them every day. We talk about issues ranging from science & technology to boys, religion, politics, love hate, sex, music, good, bad and anything else that comes to mind. My girls are very bright and have very open minds (where open minds means looking at issues from different perspectives), they can think for themselves and they can make intelligent decisions. My duty as a parent is to enable my kids to be open minded, clear thinking, self reliant individuals. I am raising adults, not children.

When I was 16 I told the dominie that I don't want to hear his stories - he said something to me that stayed with me all my life, he said: "allow me to show you what I believe and then you decide for yourself". You see, you are influenced by what you allow to influence you, you don't have to only rely on the schools version of events - your kids can read alternative histories and learn about other religions. You have the library, internet and the older generation available to learn from, why not use the tools available to you to open your mind a little.

To put it bluntly, the reason that teaching history and religion in school is a problem is because parents are too damned stupid and lazy to show their children the big world beyond the little minds of the parent themselves.

And finally a profound quote about leadership and parenting:

"Good leaders (parents) have open minds,
Great leaders (parents) open the minds of others"

[tec0]

Angry, yes I am angry because I have seen enough to convince me that the world is not a good place. I question motive, and it is our duty do question motive because there are people that have motives and these motives always dictate behaviour.

Once you understand that motives and behaviour goes hand in hand then you will see that action is always connected to motives and behaviours. So for me it is important to identify motive when it comes to religion, history, society and general education.

[adrianh]

Motive and behaviour does not always go hand in hand. A lot of things are done without motive. When a mo_r is stripped instantaneously or when drunk drivers kills a lot of kids with their cars, I can assure there was no motive, in the first case; just mental instability and in the second case; blatant stupidity.

The fact of the matter remains that you choose to believe whatever you want, whatever the motive of the other party.

The motive behind the way all those things are taught is to shape society to the need of the reigning regime - but we all know that anyway, and jumping up and down ain't going to change it.

[tec0]

When a person drives to a bar his intention is to drink alcohol. He has no sober diver with him thus his intention is to drive home intoxicated. Motive: To get drunk and drive home intoxicated full knowing “because he is licensed” that it is illegal to drink alcohol and drive.

He gets drunk “intention realized” now his behaviour will be altered due to the alcohol and he causes an “accident” and the children are dead. Now his behaviour was dictated by his motive and that was do drive to the bar get drunk and drive back.

Now his action “accidental or not” was dictated by his motive and behaviour. That’s why it is considered “murder” if you are intoxicated and driving a car and causes an accident .

[tec0]

Road rage or “strip jou m_er” while driving can be a mental condition or the cause of stress that allowed for temporary insanity. But if the condition is realised and not treated then the game changes and you can still be held accountable simply because you where diagnosed with the problem and you didn’t want to accept treatment for whatever personal reason.

However if you did accept treatment and the treatment was not working than the person giving the treatment must justify his or her Motive “but in South Africa road rage is still a touchy subject for our law makers." Normally you get charged with assault anyway so...

[adrianh]

Eish dude...It must be great to have all the answers.

I prefer to stick to "$hit happens - deal with it"

[tec0]

I prefer to stick to "$hit happens - deal with it"

Ah well with that I can agree.

And no I don’t have all the answers. If I did I would have been a Freemason with a nice new Lexus and a position of power at some large Mining group.

Peace

[Butch Hannan]

Who said the Freemasons had all the answers. Just remember that when people face great danger or imminent death they more often than not shout " Oh Lord please help me".
In those circumstances I doubt whether this is just a figure of speech.
Butch Hannan

[tec0]

It took a while but now we are on the same page. Yes people will scream those words probably out of desperation and hope that they would not suffer the coming events. How many of those people were rescued by let’s say “divine” intervention?

Now I will be honest with you. In modern times there was only 2 accounts that that I know off. Now that sounds wonderful but what about the millions of unanswered cries for help? Not to mention the horrible crimes that happen to those that cannot protect themselves.

See I don’t believe in “divinity” in the same way you do. Now that is not to say I don’t believe... It is just I know that it is every person from him or herself. Now in all probability I am wrong in saying that but the statement above reflects my experiences not yours.

It is because of my “personal” life-lessons that I say we need to ban history and religion because these systems are not being used correctly. I am not saying that religion and history is bad. I am saying that it being abused at this point in time. Now you may not agree with me but it doesn’t change the facts as shown in my previous posts.