The fall of capitalism

[Dave A]

Thinking about this, perhaps the core is that capitalism does not and should not function in isolation. To this extent, sites like capitalism.org are actually harmful.

What do you think?

[Alta Murray]

Inherent in our current discussion of capitalism is the concept of the individual's freedom to trade.

Agreed -- but then one can not impinge on that freedom in any way, nor stand by the side and decide for the 'free individual' what is an artificial or real need. Sometimes the market will fill a need, and sometimes a want, but that will differ from individual to individual.

i.e. Capitalism (in the economic sense) requires a social system to support it, and thus we must look at both the economic and social system.

Granted, but chew on this -- Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world, it has endured for centuries. Does society condone prostitution? No, it does not, therefore the social system becomes the lion that doesn't roar, and economics in conjuction with a social system becomes irrelevant. But only in some cases, which creates the confusion that reigns.

.... it must continue to manufacture needs (create demand). If there is not sufficient demand, then profits dwindle. If you can create an artificial demand, then profits can continue. It you want to create a demand for vehicles, then move people away from their workplaces and access to public transport (i.e. create suburbs).

Read that too in my fav ec.text book of all times, but I don't agree. Look at current urban development or look at the old London if you will. That is not about creating artificial needs! It is called growth, and as we can not jog to work like some Highlander transversing the moors, we need transport. Transport existed in all it's forms throughout history, under all economic systems, so to blame capitalism for that one, is not correct. Or did all socialists jog to work, running from suburbs to Moscow? Did socialism not produce submarines, or did they swim and attacked with their snorkels?

Capitalism can not 'manufacture' needs. I can not think of one instance in history where a human being went : Well, I have all my basic needs met, so I am happy. As a species we will always want more without any outside influences, it is called evolution, and it is the secret of our success in the food chain. We will always strive for more!

I can think of many instances where the market failed to create a product that took off, think of books in the beginning. Not a smash hit at first, but it was the thirst of knowledge that drove the advent, not the market place that created an artificial need.

The way to overcome this limitation of profit was worked out quite a while ago (in the 1920s). If you can convince people that no matter how much they have it is never enough then you have won - you have created consumers.

No, again, the people need no convincing whatsoever in this regard. Enough will never be enough, good thing too, otherwise we would still be stuck in some cave, but even in that scenario, can you not see the one guy eyeing the bigger fire in the next cave?

Would that make me part of a bad system if I rocked up with matches? Am I then creating an artificial need?

I think what you mean is that we compete and complete our irmage with a luxury car for instance. That is then an 'artificial need' created by the market place? It is not an artificial need, people will always look towards outward signs to determine pecking order if you like. Way back it was horses, kid you not, and stealing a horse was a capital offence.

It is human nature, plain and simple, and to blame a system that conforms to human nature doesn't make sense.

[Alta Murray]

I agree, no model will function in isolation, by it's essence it can not. I think the confusion stems from the fact that when one studies economics, the lines become blurred, and politics confused the matter even further as the flag for democracy was capitalism, and the cold war did not help either JFK actually determined that to win the hearts of people for democracy, one should be able to show them that capitalism works.

So no, it can not function in isolation, but like religion, it can be used to meet other needs. I will never think an opinion harmful though, and if silly enough to read and believe, that is down to stupidity of the reader. I think we have moved well into the info age, and that has prompted us to become thinking human beings, though Duncan would label that an artificial need that has been met Come to think of it, that has negated the move towards mobilization.

Let's do something new -- come up with a better model than capitalism, and motivate. For two pages we have been complaining and analyzing, just like a cackle of woemen So lets find a solution......

[duncan drennan]

I'll be back with a more comprehensive post later, but Alta, go read this article, The Gospel of Consumption. I think one of the most important quotes from that article is this,

“Nothing,� he claimed, “breeds radicalism more than unhappiness unless it is leisure.�

[Alta Murray]

'Yet we could work and spend a lot less and still live quite comfortably.' I believe that is the gist of your thrust and it has done me a great deal of good to read the piece so I can understand where you are coming from, Duncan. Also my uncle gave me the pocket book today that my grandfather had during WWII, and I felt very sad reading through his notes and poems, and it did make me hanker for a time when values were different.

Imagine getting a Harley after 5 years of war

Don't you think the piece is perhaps very 'New Age' in the sense that it is more of a social comment, a comment on society and how business people tapped into society rather than the inverse?

but i am glad that there are people like that out there, I have to say that, but i have to wonder if the author lives in a ranch house(single storey) and drives an old car.....pontificiation is one thing. Good reading material to gain perspective would be the Last Lecture, i found that very moving.

Let me hit the code, I have tangled myself in a database and I am so almost finish with my system, having left the easy stuff for last, and now I struggle!! grrrr.....

[wynn]

Years ago in another life when I fancied I was a poet, part of one of my poems was,
"If filthy capitalism does not make it go round,
a gold mine is just a hole in the ground."

A later Poem had a couple of lines,
"was the light we saw in the tunnel today,
the gravy train going the opposite way."

The death of capitalism is going to be another "ism" dont know which.
What I do know is that the death of 'Democracy is going to be 'Kleptocracy'

[Dave A]

Is capitalism responsible for human greed?

[Alta Murray]

One remains a poet for life, so shame on you for the delusion that you can run from your own shadow And you are a commentary poet, and that is rare, rare indeed.

I had come to the same conclussion last night -- this thread is a social commentary, and I agree with Dave.

Here is the challenge : It will get us nowhere to sit and pontificate, and I always think with a wry smile that our ancestors where only allowed on board the creaking ships if they could bitch very well, for that is one thing our SA's are good at. Crit and complain, but the last time I looked the bad guys were winning, so here goes.....

Whatever you propose as an alternative, you have to live.

I liked your poems and your take on -ism.