We are so fickle and cowardly

[ChrisNG53]

Right all analogies aside, clearly by drawing a comparison between sports and so on will not solve this. Let's call a duck a duck and leave it at that for the time being. I still maintain ignorance as I am really not involved with the sport nor do I care enough to spend the time to research the rules.

Fact is all arguments have multiple aspects and each will conclude accordingly. My view is that you cannot label people base ruling and strategy; there is always a hidden hand at work. As for the ruling to be simple and easy to make. I agree that "if" it was the case than why not ask questions.

But in my opinion, keep those who are accountable, accountable for their actions first. Then move on to the next and investigate why so many athletes did what they did. Why wasn't it picked up before this event? Why were the rules so lax? Explore the history and then the truth will reveal itself.

Now I personally am not committed to this as it is not as important then let's say getting your tax done on time. Getting your washing machine fixed and so on. I say this not as a sheep. I say this because regardless of what the outcome will be, it will have no effect on my life. Unless one feels otherwise and if that is the case I wish you the best of luck.

But always remember that we are human and with it comes many flaws and many more half truths. Accepting this fact doesn’t make you a sheep just a very ordinary human-being.

teco -- I have to insist, with respect, that you are indulging in a cop out. Remember what Edmund Burke said that 'for evil to triumph it requires only that good men say/do nothing". When we have ALL THE FACT and are able to make a judgement call on what is wrong it is a cop out to choose to say "well, you know what, I am only human".

[ChrisNG53]

@Kevin - Google

Judge Chris N Greenland

You'll see that Chris is for real!

I have just looked in the mirrore, checked my ID and am able to confirm that .... lol.

[ChrisNG53]

Thanks Chris and everyone who contributed. I enjoyed the sparring. This was a good debate.

Ditto ...

[tec0]

Cop out?

Honestly? I expected a bit more… The argument was engineered. I mean no disrespect but you knew that your case and point was easily defendable. I have seen this strategy before in many conspiracies thus it is hardly new.

It is always masked as the greater good against an infantine evil. However you disarmed every opinion with your "FACTS" knowing that any argument against them would be lost.

Sadly a second truth eluded you… Because you took it upon yourself to dismiss any and all arguments against your claim you stopped people for thinking for themselves and you robbed them of hope. A hero can come from almost any walk of life, all of them made their mistakes.

If you are only interested in the mistakes then you will find them. Because that is all that matter to you. Thus you enabled evil to take away hope…

sorry for the harshness…

[ChrisNG53]

Cop out?

Honestly? I expected a bit more… The argument was engineered. I mean no disrespect but you knew that your case and point was easily defendable. I have seen this strategy before in many conspiracies thus it is hardly new.

It is always masked as the greater good against an infantine evil. However you disarmed every opinion with your "FACTS" knowing that any argument against them would be lost.

Sadly a second truth eluded you… Because you took it upon yourself to dismiss any and all arguments against your claim you stopped people for thinking for themselves and you robbed them of hope. A hero can come from almost any walk of life, all of them made their mistakes.

If you are only interested in the mistakes then you will find them. Because that is all that matter to you. Thus you enabled evil to take away hope…

sorry for the harshness…

Whatever else, you certainly have "bottle" as the English say. Full marks, in my book, for that robust reposte. I unashamedly confess to be very interested in the "evil" of the pandemic tolerance of convenient lies. If it is an obsession I will expect a "Gold Medal' when my time comes.

[Just Gone]

Yes you are clearly interested in the "evil" and only your opinion really counts to you. ......... but I suppose that is to be expected.

Yes tec I fully agree with your last posting.

[adrianh]

Hmmm...

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

...and to add my own piece to the quotation...

Microscopic people attack and insult other people.

[tec0]

Again I never intended to attack anyone, but I do feel that this thread was provocative by design. Honestly just look at the title? Fact is in order to do something you need to be enabled to do so.

This was my point all along. You need to understand multiple aspects of a situation first. Yes the facts of this argument were easy and simple enough as such easy to defend. That said what happened before this moment? What happened in other competitions?

Any investigator will tell you nothing is without cause… And to my mind no effort was made to highlight the immediate past thus a half truth. And the debate/argument is based on a half truth. Not to mention that many are not familiar with the actual rules and or history. A very important aspect that has been overlooked.

We accepted the ruling knowing that changes will be made to the rules in the future so we hardly let it slide to begin with?

Are we without action? No, if we where the rules would remain the same. [Case and point]

I will leave this at that.

[adrianh]

It works like this:

Case 1.

1. There is a rule.
2. The rule is broken by our team.
3. Our team wins.
4. We are happy and accept that rules are sometimes broken.

Case 2.

1. There is a rule.
2. The rule is broken by another team.
3. Our team loses.
4. We are not happy because the rule was broken.

There is nothing more to it than that....Nothing, zip, zero....

The discussion centres on how we feel about it when rules are broken.

[gac]

You've got me worried adrianh and I'm not sure I can believe you.

Your view on truth has been posted before, I didn't understand you then and I still don't understand you now.

The Chiefs won the Super 15 Rugby Tournament. Thats a trutful fact. If anyone were to claim they didn't would be a non-truth or untruthful.

The USA won the most Gold Medals at the 2012 Olympics. Thats the truth If anyone were to claim they didn't, would be a non-truth/lie whatever one wants to call it.

Snow fell across many parts of South Africa last week. Thats the truth. To claim there was no snow that fell would not be the truth.

At the time of posting this message today is Saturday the 18th August 2012. Thats the truth. If I said it was Sunday would not be the truth.

How can there be no such thing?

[adrianh]

Think about it this way; When we observe what goes on around us we do not observe all that is reality. Lets look at our eyes for starters.

Our eyes have blindspots. There are areas in our visual field that we cannot physically see yet our mental machinery fills in the gaps. We are unable to clearly see our entire visual field, we are only able to focus on a very small part. Our eyes dance around all the time and our mental machinery the builds a picture of the world in our minds. Now, that picture is not perfectly up to date, it is made up of a series of snapshots over time that are pieced together in our minds. So now we have a mental picture but that is only a small fraction of the manipulation that our mental machinery is required to do. How do you know where the screen in front of you end and the wall begins, how are you able to tracks a fast moving object crossing your visual field etc. Your mental machinery has many parallel processes that interperet the incoming information and analyzes it. The analysis not only includes color, brightness, movement etc, it also includes recognition and depth perception. Now, there are hundereds of visual illusions that trick our minds into believing all sorts of things. i.e. a common TV screen. The entire screen surface is not drawn at once, the screen draws at a speed higher than what our minds can perceive so we think that the movement is fluid. A 7 segment led clock display. Each number in the display is multiplexed into a circuit that lights them one at a time fast enough for the mind to see a solid pattern where all the numbers are lit. Ok, so as you can see, our visual machinery make a lot of assumptions and make a lot of compromises so that we are able to see the world. The problem is that the machinery differs from person to person. I do not trust my own eyes because I know that I automatically make visual assumptions and that those visual assumptions may be incorrect. This is why different people have different accounts of the same event. The question now is this: is what you see TRUE reality. Can one ever say that you see true reality. What about an animal that sees infra red light or uses sonar to see, do they see true reality. The only thing we can say for sure is that we can account as accurately as possible for our own interperetation of reality at the time we saw it and that the interpretation is now further clouded by our recounting what we saw.

The same goes for all our senses...

Now, lets take the discussion further. Is it true that an atom is made up of protons, nuetrons and electrons...Well no..the only thing we can say is that we have a theory that fits most of the time and where the theory doesn't fit we then revert to other theories such as quantum physics.

Is it true that 1 = 1 yes you say, ok, prove it. This is not such a stupid question as you may think. Lets say you are writing a computer program and you have 2 variables, one is an integer and another a float. You do lots of math and you now get to a point where you compare iX and fX. you've done all the calculations and you know empirically that iX = 1 and that fX = 1....but the computer is adamant that they are not equal...why? Junior programmers find it difficult to resolve because they see that 1 should equal 1 and it doesn't. The problem is that the floating point math module has to round off at some point and you may find that the damn thing had rounded the 64'th digit behind the zero to one...Yes, I actually spent many hours figuring this lot out when one of our systems failed and was adamant that 1 does not equal 1.


You see, we live in a world of convenient models, I am not saying that it is wrong, what I am saying is that we need to keep it in mind. Another example; how far is it from Johannesburg to Cape Town. You will never be able to give a perfectly accurate answer because the measurement becomes infinitely small, you have to cut your measurement off at some point (accuracy & precision) and say that the measurement is simply good enough.

Truth becomes very problematic when it forms part of belief systems. Are you going to heaven? ok, prove it...you see the problem...

I am very weary of the word "truth" because we mentally automatically manipulate our experiences and we are not aware of it. This is exactly why marketing and advertising is so powerful, our mental machinery is very clever in certain ways but extremely dumb in others and marketers know how to manipulate the dumb machinery.

As a final question: Is it true that Osama Bin Laden orchestrated 9/11? Again...define truth...the American goverments official version of events. Now, if the goverment says it is true and 51% of the population says that it is true, then is it true or not, in the minds of 51% of the population it is true and in the minds of 49% of the population it is not true, so what now....Maybe Schrödinger's was correct, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time...

So, with regards to the discussion at hand. If we choose to accept that a rule is defined in a certain way, and the rule is broken, then is ok for the rule to be broken to a certain degree. At what point do we say the rule is totally broken. Think about it, ask any woman what it means to be unfaithful....each woman has her own degree at which she feels the line has been crossed. You may see a kiss on the cheek as nothing and she may see it as being unfaithful. It is the same problem, at what point is the rule broken, when you add one kick, two, three, four....

[Nigel Hamilton]

Lol -- you certainly are NOT a sheep because you have been thinking it all through quite sapientially I must say. Wonderful!
I think you have worked it out for yourself . .and have answered the questions raised.

Ha ha.... whew, was wondering if i was going to "baa" anytime soon

[vieome]

Maybe Schrödinger's was correct, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time...

Great insight adrianh, because while I agree 100% with the argument chris put forward, I also in a sense took the time to ponder, if Cameron acted on impulse in the race, or if he pre-meditated on matter, if he and his coach had decided the only way he could win was the extra kick, and the reason to risk it, was simple because they noticed that past medalist were getting away with it. They opened the box and found the cat alive. What color is a chameleon on a mirror?

[ChrisNG53]

You've got me worried adrianh and I'm not sure I can believe you.

Your view on truth has been posted before, I didn't understand you then and I still don't understand you now.

The Chiefs won the Super 15 Rugby Tournament. Thats a trutful fact. If anyone were to claim they didn't would be a non-truth or untruthful.

The USA won the most Gold Medals at the 2012 Olympics. Thats the truth If anyone were to claim they didn't, would be a non-truth/lie whatever one wants to call it.

Snow fell across many parts of South Africa last week. Thats the truth. To claim there was no snow that fell would not be the truth.

At the time of posting this message today is Saturday the 18th August 2012. Thats the truth. If I said it was Sunday would not be the truth.

How can there be no such thing?

The If I catch someone removing money from my wallet or items from my house without my permission and er of theft and they deny it, what else can that be but untruthful. If I then claim that they are not telling the truthwhat I am cl

With respect, you seem to missing the whole point. So I will give a VERY SIMPLE example.
I win the British Open. It is announced and I get the Claret Jug. On your approach, as long as that it the "official position", that is the end of the matter.
Problem - -the Whole World has see that my ball moved after I had addressed it before two shots into the 17th and 18th greens. They have seen and now know that-
1. I did not call penalty strokes on myself;
2. I then signed for a wrong score;
3. a correct score would have put me one shot behind you;
4. you would have been the winner, instead of me.

The fact that I have been declared the winner AND that everyone else accepts this, because it is "official" DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT I CHEATED.
All those who are prepared to just overlook this are either fickle or cowardly -- sheep. That is my point.

[ChrisNG53]

Great insight adrianh, because while I agree 100% with the argument chris put forward, I also in a sense took the time to ponder, if Cameron acted on impulse in the race, or if he pre-meditated on matter, if he and his coach had decided the only way he could win was the extra kick, and the reason to risk it, was simple because they noticed that past medalist were getting away with it. They opened the box and found the cat alive. What color is a chameleon on a mirror?

Excellent take.