We are so fickle and cowardly
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It must also be noted that there is different ways in applying an action for a rule, as in the case of a rule applied to a sport (swimming - you may be disqualified if you do more than one dolphin kick),and an action for a law as applied in a speed limit (Traffic Offence - you will be fined for transgression).
Rule, and I stand to be corrected here, is a process you follow, and may be deviated
Law, is an absolute and has no room to deviate.Victor - Knowledge is a blessing or a curse, your current circumstances make you decide!
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Right all analogies aside, clearly by drawing a comparison between sports and so on will not solve this. Let's call a duck a duck and leave it at that for the time being. I still maintain ignorance as I am really not involved with the sport nor do I care enough to spend the time to research the rules.
Fact is all arguments have multiple aspects and each will conclude accordingly. My view is that you cannot label people base ruling and strategy; there is always a hidden hand at work. As for the ruling to be simple and easy to make. I agree that "if" it was the case than why not ask questions.
But in my opinion, keep those who are accountable, accountable for their actions first. Then move on to the next and investigate why so many athletes did what they did. Why wasn't it picked up before this event? Why were the rules so lax? Explore the history and then the truth will reveal itself.
Now I personally am not committed to this as it is not as important then let's say getting your tax done on time. Getting your washing machine fixed and so on. I say this not as a sheep. I say this because regardless of what the outcome will be, it will have no effect on my life. Unless one feels otherwise and if that is the case I wish you the best of luck.
But always remember that we are human and with it comes many flaws and many more half truths. Accepting this fact doesn’t make you a sheep just a very ordinary human-being.peace is a state of mind
Disclaimer: everything written by me can be considered as fictional.Comment
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I agree with your explanation of the duty of counsel, but is that what really happens in court? Is misleading evidence, stalling, obstruction and withholding of facts not more the norm than a straightforward defence? How often do we see the character of a witness being attacked in an attempt to discredit the witness?
Is that cheating or just playing dirty? (Or is that the same thing?)
So the reality si that we also have "Cheats" in the legal profession.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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Haha, I wouldn't knock it on on purpouse and luckily it is only a scrum :-) not a olympic medal. I still would like to see what is being referred to, as I didn't see it in the race. In my own sports nature I would not cheat intentionally. I am sure a swimmer at that level has respect for what he does and only wants to do it to the best of his ability. Cheating is not the best of your ability. I would not sell my sole to be a winner and if the ref asked me if I knocked that ball on, I would have told him YES.
Cheating is quite a different matter. It is when I seek to win by deceptively breaching a fundamental rule. Just think it through -- using an illegal ball in golf ... pumpinmg myself up with steroids for weightlifting ... taking 10 extra kicks when i turn in the breast stroke .....Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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Chris i am guessing as a judge, you need to stick to the rule book in your daily life, and sort through the grey areas to ensure that the rule of law is enforced. Your hands are tied, and unless a law is changed you cannot deviate. ie your job i guess would be to sort the grey area's into black and white...using the law and your experience to achieve this.
However i cannot judge you in your personal life, and i guess if you have ever speeded, then i guess what you have to look at is the circumstances of that speeding
it could have been intentional
subconscious(ooops went a bit over there)
or an emergency
whatever the reason, the rule of law (in the absence of a judge) will result in the prescribed fine of whatever the calculation might be.
It could be noted that 2 different judges if given the opportunity might come up with 2 different rulings for this transgression, and although there are laws and specific fines, there are extenuating circumstances...this is where the black and white becomes somewhat grey.
So back to the point, if the law stated you cannot do more than 1 dolphin kick, then you are 100% correct, and we all have to agree with you!
Should the law be changed? Well thats not up to us.... and until it is changed, it is against the law...simple
This debate is going array, because we are all acting like judges, we are sifting through the grey! The first question "if" there is an opinion to be had would be (and assuming we have made ourselves as rule makers and judges)
1. should the rule be changed
2. In the absence of previous coinvictions, might be plausable that Cameron has a case
3. Would i have done the same thing?
Chris so you are correct, he cheated, would i have done the same..yes
So lets pose another analogy
there is a stretch of highway of 2km that for some odd reason has a 60km/h speed limit.
You as a law abiding citizen stick to this
There are no speed traps, and there have never been.
Most people then decide over time, to push the boundaries 70km/h, 80km/h, 120km/h they are clearly breaking the law
there are no repercussions
you stick to 60km/h, but even start questioning this limit yourself
eventually you are the only guy slowing up the flow
Today you are late for a very important(life changing meeting) what do you do?....
Cameron went 120km/h...he was wrong, should he give back his gold?
Maybe the reason for no timeous objections was because they have all at some point travelled at 120km/h.
I think you have worked it out for yourself . .and have answered the questions raised.
My point is that most do not do what you have done, but just "go with the flow" and adopt the view of the common herd. That is why I say they are sheep. Others "conveniently" skew their thinking. That is why I say they are "fickle". Others absolutely know that something is wrong, but will go with the herd .. out of a "cowardly" disposition.
Cameron did cheat, as be broke an established rule, hoping to get away with it, and he did. Yes, he was in an invidious situation because others were also doing this and policing was not being done. This mitigates his moral blameworthiness ... but does not change the fact that he cheated. We all, at one time or another, have to make a decision as to whether we do the wrong thing because of situational pressure.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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I thought this poem was rather relevant to the discussion.
When you get what you want in your struggle for self
and the world makes you king for a day,
just go to a mirror and look at yourself
and see what that man has to say.
For it isn't your father or mother or wife
who judgement upon you must pass.
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life,
is the one staring back from the glass.
Some people may think you a straight-shooting chum
and call you a wonderful guy.
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum
if you can't look him straight in the eye.
He's the fellow to please never mind all the rest.
For he's with you right up to the end,
and you've passed your most dangerous difficult test
if the man in the glass is your friend.
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of life,
and get pats on your back as you pass.
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
if you've cheated the man in the glass.
Mark HarrisNo act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted. - Aesop "The Lion and the Mouse"Comment
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Maybe the law gets broken because there is no law enforcement? When people think that a rule or law is not important, they will start ignoring that rule, because everyone else does (herd mentality). If enforced, we would think twice about breaking the rule, because of the possible consequences.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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I thought this poem was rather relevant to the discussion.
When you get what you want in your struggle for self
and the world makes you king for a day,
just go to a mirror and look at yourself
and see what that man has to say.
For it isn't your father or mother or wife
who judgement upon you must pass.
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life,
is the one staring back from the glass.
Some people may think you a straight-shooting chum
and call you a wonderful guy.
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum
if you can't look him straight in the eye.
He's the fellow to please never mind all the rest.
For he's with you right up to the end,
and you've passed your most dangerous difficult test
if the man in the glass is your friend.
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of life,
and get pats on your back as you pass.
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
if you've cheated the man in the glass.
Mark Harris
Wonderful! have copied it for maximum plagiarization.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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bjsteyn - -you need to distinguish transgressions on the field which most sports have. There are stipulated penalties applied by the refs. Disqualification is not usually such a penalty.
Cheating is quite a different matter. It is when I seek to win by deceptively breaching a fundamental rule. Just think it through -- using an illegal ball in golf ... pumpinmg myself up with steroids for weightlifting ... taking 10 extra kicks when i turn in the breast stroke .....Please support us--> https://thundafund.com/project/6716626611208846
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We are all so fickle and cowardly
Guys, just to close this conversation.
I think it was useful. Regrettably the World is full of convenient untruths being propagated and inconvenient truth being suppressed. This does cause all of us all kinds of problems in one way or the other. It follows that if we have a culture of accepting, condoning, conniving and colluding at what is not true, what is wrong ... we are supporting, giving life and sustenance to this culture.
A child will start by stealing just one sweet. If you condone it, don't be surprised when later on you find that he becomes a hoodlum. As Dave has said, there are no degrees of wrongness. As regards Cameron you need only imagine him being questioned by his grandchild about his medal. The child will ask if he cheated. If he denies this it will start asking how many kicks would have been cheating in that annoying way that children have, going from 3 -4-5-6-7 ....? Check mate!
I did not post this thread because it gives me any pleasure. It actually makes me extremely sad that a brilliant athlete will now have to live with this. My hope and prayer is that he is there at the next Olympics and does it right this time. He certainly deserves it. That would be just fantastic.
I have posted the thread because in the afternoon years of my life I seek ways to contribute the the betterment of society based on my own long life. That is why I have written a book. A central theme of the book is the issue of inconvenient truths being suppressed .... etc. I have concluded that it a major reason why the World is so buggered up. And it is not the first time I have taken society to task on this issue. For instance see --- http://coginito.blogspot.com/2011/05...-even-bad.html
South Africa is a terribly anomic society. On that much we have agreed in a previous thread. Anomie is fueled by a culture of playing fast and lose with what is right and what is wrong.
Thank you for your contributions. Whatever our differences, I am sure everyone did learn something from the conversation.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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It must also be noted that there is different ways in applying an action for a rule, as in the case of a rule applied to a sport (swimming - you may be disqualified if you do more than one dolphin kick),and an action for a law as applied in a speed limit (Traffic Offence - you will be fined for transgression).
Rule, and I stand to be corrected here, is a process you follow, and may be deviated
Law, is an absolute and has no room to deviate.Let us have the conversation!
Blog: http://coginito.blogspot.com Cognito ergo sumComment
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